Security Redux

[pirakaplant]

Everything you need to read is in the doc itself.

[ThatOneMoon]

Maybe instead of the outright removal of the Stun baton and Disablers, they get tweaked to also deal damage instead?

I can absolutely imgaine a active stun baton getting like 8-10 units of shock damage and 4-6 shock damage for disablers,
especialy now that disablers no longer have the ability to stun and now only slow down people.
not enough to where you would use them as actual primary weapons but enough that most crew members would realise compliance might be better than an ass beating from sec.

Also helps play a bit into lasersec and giving them a small extra bit of aditional damage profilies to deal

[pirakaplant]

@ThatOneMoon I'm sorry for the late reply, I only just saw your message as I was going to re-request a review.

Truncheons are already something we have in the game as "batons that also deal damage", so it makes more sense to use them rather than tweak an existing item to behave like something we already have. Also I just kinda vibe with them better.

As for disablers, there was discussion of something like this (particularly with tasers as an alternative), but we reached the conclusion that having no less-lethal ranged option would make security more interesting. To quote taydeo on that PR (citing this very design doc, even):

i for one would rather favor just letting security officers kill people

[ThatOneMoon]

Truncheons are already something we have in the game as "batons that also deal damage", so it makes more sense to use them rather than tweak an existing item to behave like something we already have. Also I just kinda vibe with them better.

At the same time we also have pretty much the same thing with stun batons that have been turned off (deal 12 blunt, still capable of stunning I think?)

And maybe it's a case of personal preference but I vibe more with the idea of shock-based weaponry for sec, kind of invokes the feeling of the Combine from Half-Life (Pick up that can), brutal but not too brutal as that is going to leave a mess that later needs to be cleaned up

Alternatively the Truncheon and Stun button can just swap places with the electric beat-stick being the research upgrade to the regular beat-stick

As for disablers, there was discussion of something like this (particularly with tasers as an alternative), but we reached the conclusion that having no less-lethal ranged option would make security more interesting. To quote taydeo on that PR (citing this very design doc, even):

Assuming we went with the idea of giving disablers shock damage I would consider calling them "Less lethal" to only be borderline correct, i would consider shock-disablers to be proper weapon, just with its own niche to fill, especially now with disablers only dooing slow down, that means a typical arrest would likely involve many disabler shots to a target before the secoff closes in with a Stun button/Truncheon, in either case that's going to leave the arrested target pretty heavily beaten up.

[pirakaplant]

And maybe it's a case of personal preference but I vibe more with the idea of shock-based weaponry for sec, kind of invokes the feeling of the Combine from Half-Life (Pick up that can), brutal but not too brutal as that is going to leave a mess that later needs to be cleaned up

I think they should make a mess, actually. I don't want to pull any punches with Funky's themes.

Assuming we went with the idea of giving disablers shock damage I would consider calling them "Less lethal" to only be borderline correct, i would consider shock-disablers to be proper weapon, just with its own niche to fill, especially now with disablers only dooing slow down, that means a typical arrest would likely involve many disabler shots to a target before the secoff closes in with a Stun button/Truncheon, in either case that's going to leave the arrested target pretty heavily beaten up.

I think that if you run from Security, you should not just expect to be injured, you should expect to die. Again, I don't want to pull punches, and it makes arrests a lot more tense than just getting an extra three minutes for running away.

[ThatOneMoon]

I think that if you run from Security, you should not just expect to be injured, you should expect to die. Again, I don't want to pull punches, and it makes arrests a lot more tense than just getting an extra three minutes for running away.

I feel like that is overstepping it a bit, from evil into cartoonishly evil, Nanotrasen is still a corporation that most of all cares about its bottom line, they might not care about their employees as people, but as tools to used and profited from, killing their contractors would just not make sense from them unless their is literally no other option for them.

I think it would make more sense if Security (and by extension Command and CC VIPs) were given soft legal immunity from facing any consequences if they kill someone, but still making it clear that it should not be their default option, that I believe still would play well with the ideas of class differences between Crew and Sec/Command

NT does not have unlimited power (as much as they want to pretend otherwise), they still have to maintain a public facing image as a safe workplace (why Corporate Secrets and the Comand training manual exist), and NT letting their security forces arbitrarily murder people goes directly against that point.

[resetium]

...Killing their contractors would just not make sense from them unless their is literally no other option for them.

I will note that NT can very easily revive people from being shot and killed (worst case, pop em in a bodybag and bring em to Central Command). Also, given police forces love to use 'resisting arrest' to escalate, and I'd expect corporate law enforcement to be more brutal, not less, I'd say shooting someone for resisting arrest is realistic with modern cops, to say nothing about far future corporate cops.

That said, I do think Security should prioritize not killing, but if a death happens, they really should not care. The janitor(s) will deal with it, or failing that, the rest of the department will.

[ferynn]

I think this idea is good. Though I'd recommend not doing half truncheon damage, as that's only 10 blunt. That's less than a harmbaton currently.

[ferynn]

I feel like that is overstepping it a bit, from evil into cartoonishly evil, Nanotrasen is still a corporation that most of all cares about its bottom line, they might not care about their employees as people, but as tools to used and profited from, killing their contractors would just not make sense from them unless their is literally no other option for them.

NT does not have unlimited power (as much as they want to pretend otherwise), they still have to maintain a public facing image as a safe workplace (why Corporate Secrets and the Comand training manual exist), and NT letting their security forces arbitrarily murder people goes directly against that point.

You aren't really a contractor. NT is a colonial entity. Statelike. You're more like a corporate citizen.

They do have unlimited power in the station, in terms of immunity to consequnces. Space Law is made by Nanotrasen.

You have rights only as long as they decide it's helpful for you to have them.

[vex-ryn]

I think security, as they are now, relies too much on disablers to chase down fleeing suspects. I believe that changing, or even fully removing, disablers from the equation will lead to more strategic gameplay and roleplay experiences. For example, security would actually have to think about how to incapacitate the target, or even have officers along the escape route to ambush them. This, naturally, begets counterplay, which furthers the overall "fugitive" experience for everyone involved.

Honestly, solid PR. No notes.

[ThatOneMoon]

I think security, as they are now, relies too much on disablers to chase down fleeing suspects. I believe that changing, or even fully removing, disablers from the equation will lead to more strategic gameplay and roleplay experiences. For example, security would actually have to think about how to incapacitate the target, or even have officers along the escape route to ambush them. This, naturally, begets counterplay, which furthers the overall "fugitive" experience for everyone involved.

Honestly, solid PR. No notes.

The main thing I am overall not sure about is just the outright removal of those tools instead of tweaking/modifying them, why I initially proposed that disablers ans stun batons become essentially proper weapons that deal shock damage, still fulfills what the design document wants to do, as you could absolutely use those tools to kill someone if you really wanted/needed too, while making sure sec gets more tools to work with, not less.

Would also mean that disablers can still exist for non-security roles as a self-defense/deterrence weapon.

[pankakakas]

Hey, I heard about this recently and figured I'd throw a comment so I've said my peace I guess.

I think these kinds of theme based changes to Funky have been a massive negative over the past few months, and have driven me off of a server I have spent hundreds of hours enjoying. I've been seeing in this and other PR's a push for a heavy handed enforcement of mechanics and rules that create a rigidly defined possibility space for all characters and interaction. Making sec a pseudo antag like this will just make players like myself unable to stomach playing the role I had enjoyed because I have no interest in playing my characters as corporate space gestapo. I've seen a lot of changes similar to this be discussed lately, and I've been really disheartened by it, as Funky was the one server where I've really enjoyed the roleplaying quality as compared to the more mechanical and "gamey" LRP servers that compose most of the hub. I really think this is not a good thing for the roleplaying part of this roleplaying game, and reflects a mindset I've seen become more prominent here that is guiding Funky toward being focused around mechanical pvp with roleplaying flavor to it, over more of a roleplaying space.

[taydeo]

Hey, I heard about this recently and figured I'd throw a comment so I've said my peace I guess.

I think these kinds of theme based changes to Funky have been a massive negative over the past few months, and have driven me off of a server I have spent hundreds of hours enjoying. I've been seeing in this and other PR's a push for a heavy handed enforcement of mechanics and rules that create a rigidly defined possibility space for all characters and interaction. Making sec a pseudo antag like this will just make players like myself unable to stomach playing the role I had enjoyed because I have no interest in playing my characters as corporate space gestapo. I've seen a lot of changes similar to this be discussed lately, and I've been really disheartened by it, as Funky was the one server where I've really enjoyed the roleplaying quality as compared to the more mechanical and "gamey" LRP servers that compose most of the hub. I really think this is not a good thing for the roleplaying part of this roleplaying game, and reflects a mindset I've seen become more prominent here that is guiding Funky toward being focused around mechanical pvp with roleplaying flavor to it, over more of a roleplaying space.

Not once, in any of these PRs that you might be talking about, have ever considered them to be part of a larger focus on making the game more PVP focused. That's because that's not our goal. Our goals are defined in other parts of this Repo, and you can find them here.

You don't present a lot about the way you play, or what you expect from the server, but, whatever it is, definitely does not align with what we want the game to be. Regardless, I'll go ahead and give this a proper response, the best I can make really.

Space Station 14 isn't a chatroom with some gameplay mixed in. Gameplay is Roleplay, and part of that is using the tools at our disposal to create and imagine a world where yes, a colonial supercorp controls multiple interstellar stations. Their interest isn't aligning with Crew, its ensuring that profit is made. A lot of the time, the interests of Crew and NT are together! Yes, stopping that traitor that wants to kill your co-worker IS a good idea most of the time, yes, killing that heretic IS a good idea. But we forget that there are relationships established with departments and characters that does result in a persistent tension that exists within the station. When your friend or someone you worked with gets captured, or cremated, or whatever else, at the hands of security, that is the use of deadly force being used to enact the will of the pseudostate, in this case NanoTrasen. This is just fact. This is how the world works in-real life. And while I am sorry that that isn't the experience you're looking for, I do also ask that you reconsider what it is that you're looking for.

I refuse to dismiss the setting that the game has created for itself. I refuse to dismiss the already existing tension between command, security, and crew. When we dismiss these dynamics, we again reinforce this idea that a proper RP server is a server that values a specific vision of Security in mind. A version where Security and Antags are the primary dynamic. A proper roleplay space isn't giving people the ability to make a bunch of characters and tell them to roam around in it. A proper roleplaying space is a space where it engages you with its premise, and having you interact with it. Ideally, you don't get to pick and choose what you can experience and can't in Funky Station, and this is simply a step in that direction.

Sorry if you can't stomach that, but the only thing I'm driven by is to a dedication to making sure the game is authentic as possible. The previous visions and iterations of security just simply weren't.

The Roleplay and the Game aren't two distinct things. They are the same thing. Yes, getting beat by a baton, IS roleplay, just as much as the security officer getting slipped IS roleplay. Try engaging with the premise more. Or, don't. It's your choice ultimately.