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We loved with a love that was more than love

`` 00:00 the socialist argument is that in a 00:01 different sort of system workers can in 00:03 fact elect management run their own 00:05 forms bring new products and services to 00:08 market without the need for capitalist 00:10 wood Bhaskar really want to live in a 00:13 society in which birth control is 00:16 available if and only if a majority of 00:20 workers votes for it business owners get 00:23 to impose working conditions that have 00:25 given a good alternative 00:26 most people would reject we don't have 00:28 freedom lovers under socialism so please 00:31 give us a little bit more assurances 00:32 rather than fake responses if it's 00:34 necessary would you throw people in 00:36 prison for violating your values okay 00:42 while people are getting situated here 00:45 welcome everyone welcome to the Soho 00:47 forum it's wonderful to see so many 00:48 people here this is a monthly debate 00:51 series that we actually hope hold 00:53 further downtown most of the time but 00:55 this was a very popular event so we have 00:57 changed locations my name is Naomi 01:00 Brockwell and as a co-founder of the 01:02 series I'm absolutely delighted to be 01:04 here as a guest moderator tonight for 01:06 this very exciting debate the resolution 01:09 is socialism is more effective than 01:12 capitalism in bringing freedom to the 01:14 masses in favor of this resolution we 01:16 have bhaskar Sankara who's the founding 01:18 editor and publisher of the Jacobin 01:20 magazine and arguing against this 01:22 resolution we have Jean Epstein who's 01:24 the director of the surco forum format 01:26 format economics editor and book review 01:29 editor of Barron's so really really 01:31 wonderful having you both here is gonna 01:33 be very exciting tonight so up now while 01:38 everyone is going through their voting 01:39 procedure I want to introduce to you a 01:42 person that I'm a big big fan of he is 01:45 of course part of the part of the 01:47 problem podcast he is a very well known 01:50 and very funny comedian Dave Smith and 01:53 he'll be providing a warm-up act this 01:54 evening can you please give him a very 01:56 warm welcome to the stage 01:57 [Applause] 02:01 is this on oh okay hey what's going on 02:04 everybody 02:05 come on give yourselves a round of 02:06 applause for coming out tonight huh this 02:09 is gonna be fun 02:11 socialism vers capitalism the great 02:14 debate of our time and I I am a free 02:19 market libertarian I just happened to be 02:20 a shitty dresser that's a coincidence so 02:22 don't let that don't let that throw you 02:24 off or anything 02:26 all right good they can take a job how I 02:28 don't usually you know when we do these 02:30 things it's usually very libertarian 02:32 leaning but now we got some free-market 02:35 people here some socialists but I think 02:37 we can all agree that Trump is doing a 02:40 great job so there's a lot there's a lot 02:43 that we come together uh-huh there's 02:45 like four people who took that literally 02:46 and then the rest of the forum a couple 02:49 were right there but you know hey look 02:50 we may have some differences but at 02:52 least we're here we're gonna settle them 02:54 peacefully I think an Tifa might come 02:57 any minute but I just I hoped for now we 02:59 can have some fun I don't know I heard a 03:02 socialist told me once that that 03:05 libertarians American libertarians stole 03:08 the word libertarian from you guys is 03:11 that is that true 03:12 because I there is right like in Europe 03:14 the word libertarian was more associated 03:16 with like left-wing economics and then 03:19 Americans took that but really liberals 03:22 took our word and then we took your 03:25 because we just didn't have anything but 03:28 if it make if it makes you feel better 03:29 don't think of it as a stealing your 03:31 word just think of it as us 03:33 redistributing it to a different class 03:35 of people who needed it more than you 03:38 did I don't does that make it go down 03:41 any better no probably not what I don't 03:45 know what else can we come together on 03:47 besides obviously our love for Donald 03:50 Trump 03:51 we all were all anti-war probably right 03:54 yeah there we go someone's excited about 03:58 that that's what I like about like the 04:00 Socialists at least you guys are usually 04:01 pretty consistent on that one unless you 04:04 know Obama's doing it but other than 04:05 that you guys you guys are great 04:08 whenever a Republican is going to war 04:09 you're usually against that so let's say 04:11 at least 50% of the time 04:13 preciate it Tahoe Donald Trump do you 04:16 guys like to the Socialists at least 04:18 enjoy the kind of burn it down aspect of 04:21 Donald Trump yeah I thought I thought 04:24 some of you guys might at least like 04:26 that right now oh when did you guys 04:28 become such pussies I thought you were 04:30 revolutionaries don't burn it down we 04:32 like our iPhones now all right it's fun 04:38 huh the thing that Donald Trump's grab 04:41 people by I'm sorry did I not I should 04:45 watch my mouth on these things I 04:46 apologize 04:47 I knew the left wing was gonna be a 04:48 problem for me on this was that was that 04:50 a microaggression I don't know I don't 04:52 understand your language I'm - I don't 04:55 know maybe if I was younger I would 04:56 understand when to draw the line I'm out 04:59 of the game okay I'm married my wife is 05:00 here so you can't me to make all right 05:02 I'm out of this my wife is here she's 05:05 beautiful and she's and we're expecting 05:08 our first baby in in seven weeks 05:10 yeah that's how you get the left wing 05:12 off your back 05:14 what come on I would be a father I love 05:17 my wife she's incredible also I could 05:20 not be single in the me to moment 05:21 anymore I don't know how I don't know 05:24 how these young men navigate those 05:25 waters but I was like I got to get out I 05:27 don't you know like how do you even do 05:29 it if you're like a 20 year old single 05:31 guy you just like you go up to a girl 05:33 and you're like can I buy you a drink 05:35 and she's like actually I'm gonna call 05:37 the cops so that did and you're like I 05:39 don't think she likes me 05:40 I okay sensitive subject all right I 05:46 thought the shitty clothes thing I 05:47 should have gone back to that okay no 05:49 problem - some of you someone said they 05:52 did when I said the Donald Trump burn it 05:54 down think you kind of liked it nobody's 05:56 ever respected the presidency less than 05:59 now right at least that's that's 06:02 something and no one can deal with that 06:05 guy now you say I think Bernie Sanders 06:07 might have done a decent job debating 06:10 him did you guys Bernie fans know 06:14 all right they're not very enthusiastic 06:15 but they're there I don't you know I 06:19 disagree with most of his policies but 06:21 when it comes down to it I'm a New York 06:23 Jew I kind of love that guy like there's 06:25 just something there's something about 06:27 it 06:28 I mean I know he's in Vermont now but 06:29 that guy is a New York Jew to the core 06:31 there is you can't you can't take that 06:34 out of him I liked his style like I like 06:37 how Bernie Sanders debated Hillary 06:40 Clinton like like he just he debated 06:42 like he was just going somewhere else 06:44 and then they were like hey before we go 06:47 to dinner you got to stop off and debate 06:49 Hillary Clinton for a little bit and he 06:51 was like okay let's do it you know like 06:53 yours and they were like you want to 06:55 maybe run a comb through your hair he's 06:56 like what was the time I mean I like 06:57 just to go didn't even care I liked that 07:01 part Bernie sander 07:02 this may not make any sense but like I 07:06 feel like Bernie Sanders like when he's 07:08 giving a speech like he's just like the 07:10 1% and health care and all this I feel 07:13 like if you went on stage and just took 07:14 him and like moved him this way he would 07:17 just keep giving the speech this way 07:19 does that does that make sense at all 07:24 I'm not I don't mean to like I'm not 07:27 making fun of him for that it's just 07:28 like an observation but I'm a 07:30 libertarian I'd say about 90% of us are 07:33 somewhere on the autism spectrum so I'm 07:34 not like trying to if we cured or autism 07:38 tomorrow libertarian vanishes like 07:40 there's no more of us that's that we 07:42 just throw in the towel at that point I 07:45 don't know I'm very excited I am very 07:48 excited to see how this uh 07:49 this debate unfolds it is a super 07:52 interesting topic I mean no matter who 07:54 wins I hope you all that we will still 07:57 live in a neoliberal warfare state like 08:00 that's not going away it doesn't matter 08:01 how many good points are made up here 08:03 tonight we're all still going to be 08:05 angry that's another thing libertarians 08:08 and socialists have in common 08:10 we never win nothing ever goes our way 08:14 like Democrats and Republicans they get 08:17 to feel good sometimes we just always 08:19 have to explain why the person you think 08:22 we like still sucks and that's it's 08:25 exhausting 08:27 I do look maybe it's my bias but I do 08:31 feel like the socialism is a very I feel 08:37 like the hatred of capitalism I should 08:39 say is a little bit of a privileged 08:43 opinion I know I know 08:46 listen I I know you guys clap your ears 08:48 or whatever it's fine you agree they 08:50 don't agree but I just feel like look 08:52 I'm just giving my thought I think that 08:55 you wouldn't like I know abuse a lot of 08:57 you socialist you you hate capitalism 09:00 and it's excesses and you go to like 09:03 Times Square and it's just like this is 09:05 disgusting and I get it it is it's like 09:07 coca-cola and McDonald's as billboards 09:10 everyone's just like consumerism and but 09:13 I just think only like a privileged 09:17 person from a rich country would see 09:21 that like my point is no one comes over 09:23 from a third-world country 09:25 to Times Square and they're like oh the 09:27 consumerism like no one comes from 09:32 Africa and they're just like oh my god 09:33 the marketing is just separate they come 09:35 over and they're like holy food 09:37 look at this food everywhere this is 09:41 amazing I don't even have to hunt it I 09:43 just have to give you some of this paper 09:45 Fiat paper by the way it's not backed by 09:49 anything 09:54 I'm micro aggressed again I can't help 09:57 myself sir hi sir I really would like 10:02 you Wow 10:08 he just said great spiel let's have the 10:11 debate ensuring that I can't possibly 10:14 leave now I have to stay for a long time 10:16 I can't possibly leave on that I can't 10:19 let you pulling me off stage sir sir you 10:23 would lose a fight to my grandpa 10:25 you're not gonna bully me off of stage 10:27 okay you disagree with me I'm sorry if I 10:30 stereotyped Africa how about this for my 10:33 next comedy set you can make me a list 10:35 of all of the offensive subjects I'm not 10:37 allowed to talk about 10:40 then you can shove it up your ass okay 10:41 thank you guys very much you'd rather 10:42 debate I appreciate it 10:44 [Applause] 10:51 and on that note let's invite the 10:54 speakers onto the stage I trust that 10:56 everyone has already put in their votes 10:58 into the Soho vote.com website I'm 11:02 looking at it right now there are a lot 11:03 of responses here so thank you all for 11:05 that I'll be closing in just a moment 11:07 but let me go ahead and introduce our 11:09 speakers so arguing for the resolution 11:11 is Bhaskar Sankar who's the founding 11:14 editor and publisher of the Jacobin 11:16 magazine a leading voice of the American 11:18 left he's also the author of the 11:20 forthcoming socialist manifesto the case 11:22 for radical politics in an era of 11:25 extreme inequality which will be out in 11:27 April from basic books arguing against 11:30 the resolution as Jean Epstein the 11:31 director of the Soho forum is the former 11:33 economics editor and book reviewer 11:35 editor of Barron's and once more the 11:37 resolution tonight is socialism is more 11:41 effective than capitalism in bringing 11:43 freedom to the masses can you please 11:45 give our debaters a very warm welcome to 11:46 the stage so I am closing the voting now 12:04 for anyone who didn't get your voice and 12:06 just realize that in order for your vote 12:08 to be counted you have to be voting 12:10 twice so and Jean will be back in one 12:13 second this is the perfect moment for 12:15 him to be leaving fortunately 12:19 fortunately he has done this many many 12:22 times and understands the format so I 12:23 will go ahead and explain the format to 12:25 all of you so I'll give you a couple 12:28 more seconds to vote on there if anyone 12:31 hasn't already and so we start off with 12:33 a 15-minute opening remarks from each 12:35 person starting with the affirmative and 12:38 Bhaskar and then Jean will give his case 12:40 for the negative after that we have five 12:42 minutes of rebuttal from each side and 12:45 then I'm going to be inviting the 12:47 audience to ask questions so you will 12:49 notice that we in this very dark room 12:51 that you can't see them at the moment we 12:52 do have two microphones at the front of 12:54 the stage so if you are up the top in 12:56 the gallery I saw that a lot of people 12:58 have has since arrived and that's filled 12:59 up so I will be letting you guys know if 13:02 you wanted to ask questions to either of 13:03 the debaters I'll be letting you know 13:05 when you 13:05 and make your way down and start lining 13:07 up there and the same goes for everyone 13:08 in the audience if you do want to ask 13:10 questions to either of the debaters then 13:12 I will be letting you know that the 13:14 microphones are gainer at the side 13:16 please don't line up before I announce 13:18 it because we'll just have a long line 13:20 of people there so after that we'll have 13:23 30 minutes of Q&A I will also at that 13:26 time invite the debaters to be asking 13:27 questions to each other he's back guys 13:31 yeah this is what a bit of very 13:33 one-sided debate without your team so 13:35 after that we will have five minutes 13:37 closing remarks from the affirmative 13:39 five minutes summary from the negative 13:41 and then we'll open up the final vote so 13:43 now that that is all clear we are ready 13:47 to begin I would like to invite Bhaskar 13:49 to give your opening establishing case 13:51 15-minute remarks 14:00 thank you all for for coming I should 14:03 say I'm a bit wary of the framing 14:06 actually I was a bit worried about even 14:09 about even coming but I took inspiration 14:11 from I don't know if any of you are a 14:13 basketball fans I'm very excited that 14:14 the season is starting start inspiration 14:17 from Jimmy Butler 14:18 you know you might make a scene but you 14:20 got to show up to get paid so I'm here 14:23 so I am worried about the framing 14:26 statement because it's an assertion that 14:28 could very well devolve into just 14:30 terminological debates 14:32 you know I say socialism means one thing 14:35 gene says capitalism means another I lay 14:38 at a socialist vision of a just world 14:40 gene says I'm comparing the messiness of 14:43 an actually functioning system with a 14:45 theoretical one so instead what I would 14:47 like to do is both lay out the 14:50 democratic socialist vision and explain 14:51 how reforms inspired by it and enacted 14:54 by Democratic socialists have furthered 14:57 the cause of human freedom so to begin 15:00 with I should say that democratic 15:01 socialism is not an anti liberalism we 15:05 stand in the radical spirit of the 15:07 Enlightenment the spirit of those 15:08 movements that called for liberty 15:10 equality and solidarity the problem that 15:13 socialists have with capitalism is that 15:15 it's both created the material wealth 15:18 necessary for us to bring about that 15:21 world but frustrated its actual 15:23 realization so India has a free press 15:26 that's a triumph of its social order but 15:28 30% of Indians are illiterate to fulfill 15:31 the promise of freedom of press in 15:34 actuality we need to have the right to a 15:37 universal high quality state-run 15:39 education so that's a logic of 15:41 democratic socialism pushing beyond the 15:44 logic of liberalism so similarly we do 15:47 have freedom today we're not living in 15:50 the worst of all possible worlds but 15:52 it's an unnecessarily limited freedom 15:54 it's a freedom mostly enjoyed by those 15:57 who own capitalist private property the 16:00 rest of us are at the mercy of those 16:02 people by private property socialists 16:05 don't mean personal items but those 16:08 things that give people who own them 16:09 power over those who don't take it 16:12 privately 16:13 workplace business owners get to impose 16:16 working conditions that have given a 16:18 good alternative 16:18 most people would reject and while 16:21 workers do most of the work at a job 16:23 owners have unilateral say over how 16:25 profits are divided so Jean would say 16:28 that this is merely an employment 16:30 contract while socialists say that 16:32 worker starve is not a fair choice 16:35 economic relations aren't free and 16:37 private these are contrasts that are 16:39 laid under duress their contracts that 16:42 undemocratically give some people 16:45 tremendous power over others now 16:48 capitalists and workers of course need 16:49 each other but it's an asymmetrical 16:52 dependency any employer needs an 16:54 individual employee less and that 16:56 employee needs an employer the this 16:59 realization is at the core of 17:01 working-class politics the the reason 17:04 why generations of working people have 17:06 organized collectively to bargain on the 17:08 shop floor and I've also tried to 17:10 influence politics at a national level 17:12 through political parties now let's look 17:16 at concrete examples of democratic 17:18 socialist politics in practice examples 17:21 that I would argue show the enhancement 17:23 of human freedom in action so we could 17:27 see existing societies take Europe's 17:29 welfare states in most cases built by 17:32 social democratic movements where 17:35 private property has been undermined 17:37 through the regulation of capital in 17:40 those societies the majority enjoy a 17:43 greater reign of range of choice and 17:45 they have a greater chance to reach 17:47 their god-given potential than I do in 17:50 the United States before I'm an atheist 17:52 I'm not sure why I said God but roll 17:55 with it those societies limit freedom 17:57 for people that own private property if 18:00 I owned a factory and I employ gene 18:02 there's a restriction on my freedom to 18:06 use a machinery that I purchased with 18:08 any given set of workers including gene 18:10 for more than 40 hours a week that 18:14 there's a restriction on my ability to 18:16 unilaterally dismiss gene if gene isn't 18:19 doing a good job and within the first 18:21 hour of screw up I want to dismiss him 18:23 and so forth but for the majority of 18:26 people who don't own 18:27 private property for people like Jean 18:29 they enjoy a greater range of choice and 18:32 decided their life outcomes deciding the 18:36 conditions of which they live every day 18:37 and a greater chance to reach their full 18:39 potential 18:39 they had this greater freedom not 18:42 because private property is upheld but 18:45 because the freedom for the minority who 18:46 owns private property is limited 18:49 fundamentally socialists believe in the 18:51 rights of people to the fruits of their 18:53 own labor of course we believe in 18:56 individual rights and individual freedom 18:58 but our individuality can only be 19:00 developed fully in a society embodying 19:02 the values of liberty equality and 19:04 solidarity 19:05 we don't want an all-powerful government 19:09 bureaucracy we don't want big corporate 19:11 bureaucracy to control our society 19:13 either social and economic decisions we 19:16 argue should be made by those with whom 19:18 they most affect so libertarians can't 19:22 go far enough to embrace a more 19:25 expansive vision of freedom that's 19:27 because a deeper freedom isn't 19:28 compatible with a world in which a few 19:31 own private property and the rest of us 19:33 are at their mercy is to survive it's 19:35 not primarily a question of the market 19:37 but that a private ownership and the 19:39 disparities of that entails 19:41 now what Jean may say if he was as sharp 19:46 and witty as me is that what you're 19:48 describing is a social system social 19:50 democracy a system where much of social 19:53 life is taken outside the sphere of the 19:55 market where extensive rights are 19:57 afforded to working people and so on 19:59 that might have been enacted even by 20:02 nominally socialist parties but that is 20:04 fundamentally fueled by wealth created 20:07 through private enterprise a Democratic 20:10 Socialist would have two replies the 20:12 first is of the rights I've described 20:13 above where rights were foisted upon 20:17 capitalists and enacted in most cases by 20:20 labor based parties communist regimes 20:23 rolled on authoritarian coercion but 20:26 also but out of the great workers 20:27 movements of the 19th and early 20th 20:29 century also came profound attempts to 20:32 humanize capitalism to make it more 20:34 democratic this progress these efforts 20:37 all dependent on wealth generated by 20:40 capitalism but capital everywhere and 20:43 always has fought against the 20:45 implementation of democracy and the 20:47 expansion of suffrage and once we got 20:50 democracy capitalism has always worked 20:52 to undermine it to make sure that the 20:54 power was never helmed in by democratic 20:57 processes by engaged and empowered 21:00 workers while were capital is so worried 21:04 about working in democratic societies 21:07 it's simple they thought that if working 21:10 people had the vote they wouldn't just 21:12 stop there they would extend democracy 21:14 for merely the political sphere into 21:16 democratic and social realms as well 21:18 that's why all parts of the social 21:20 movement call themselves social 21:22 democrats for much of its history 21:24 capitalists actually underestimated how 21:27 resilient their system is we do live in 21:29 a democratic capitalist society a 21:31 society that's been made more civilized 21:33 by the efforts of working-class 21:34 movements but simply every one of those 21:38 struggles every one of those efforts to 21:39 humanize a system to bring it closer to 21:42 our ideals has been despite the 21:44 resistance of capitalist to say that 21:47 you're a supporter of capitalism today 21:49 is not to say that if you're in favor of 21:51 markets I'm in favor of a system of 21:53 worker controlled forms operating in a 21:55 regular regulated market to say that our 21:58 capitalist is to say that you're in 21:59 favor of private property the rights of 22:02 individuals to own firms and employ 22:05 people and wage labor Democratic 22:08 socialists don't think of all capitals 22:11 of courses as parasites it might be in 22:14 our rhetoric but in fact it's not in our 22:15 analytical vision many capitalists do 22:19 contribute not only their individual 22:21 talents but managerial expertise to 22:24 enterprises and they often take on 22:27 tremendous amounts of entrepreneurial 22:29 risk in starting new ventures the 22:32 socialist argument is that in a 22:33 different sort of system workers can in 22:35 fact elect management run their own 22:37 forms bring new products and services to 22:40 market without the need for capitalist 22:43 we can do so of course in a society 22:46 where the necessities that one needs to 22:48 have a good life access a childcare 22:50 healthcare housing education all these 22:52 things are guaranteed as social 22:54 right and not something prone to 22:56 accidents of birth or the ability to pay 22:58 a market price for but if you're 23:01 depending defending capitalism once 23:03 again you're not defending markets 23:04 they've existed before capitalism and 23:07 they will exist after capitalism you 23:09 were defending a form of social 23:11 organization based on hierarchy and 23:13 exploitation most of our lives are spent 23:18 in unfree workplaces a few corporate 23:21 ceos make decisions that affect millions 23:23 of people and this tyranny bleeds over 23:26 into other spheres of life it undermines 23:28 even political democracy the noble dream 23:32 of liberty and justice for all has been 23:34 frustrated by how wealth and power are 23:36 distributed by how undemocratic 23:38 capitalism is and if we were to achieve 23:41 a deeper democracy an economic democracy 23:44 the Conor democracy that allows the 23:46 majority to live freer happier lives 23:48 then we would see that capitalism is a 23:50 barrier to that advance at its core you 23:55 know I'm a Backstreet Boy socialist you 23:57 know III I realized I wrote what I wrote 23:59 is very close to Backstreet Boys lyric 24:01 as I'm reading it but to assert these 24:05 social sort the moral worth of every 24:08 person matter you know who they are 24:09 where they came from or what they did I 24:12 added the last part with any luck future 24:16 generations will look back at a time 24:18 when when life outcomes were accidents 24:19 at Birth with shock and disgust the same 24:22 way we look back on more extreme form of 24:24 exploitation and oppression slavery 24:26 feudalism and so on that have already 24:28 been done away with if human beings have 24:31 the same inherent Worth and it's up to 24:35 you whether or not that's that's a case 24:36 then they must be free to fulfill their 24:39 potential to flourish in all their 24:41 individuality in order to realize this 24:44 expanse of freedom we need to guarantee 24:47 at least the basics of a good life to 24:49 all and given the opportunity to thrive 24:52 these people can then contribute to 24:55 society and create the conditions in 24:57 which others can do the same freedom for 25:01 working people today however means 25:02 limiting the freedom of those who 25:05 benefit from the inequalities and hair 25:08 in class society socialism is not so 25:11 much about trading freedom for equality 25:13 but rather posing the question of 25:16 freedom for whom and I would argue that 25:19 socialism is even an extension in a 25:21 sense of freedom for capitalist every 25:24 little fiber of a capitalist being is is 25:27 lost and the effort to remain 25:29 competitive in the marketplace 25:31 imagine if what Steve Jobs personality 25:35 would have been like if you would have 25:36 been able to flourish in other ways 25:39 instead of just being you know an 25:40 asshole call his dying day but it's not 25:43 Steve Jobs heart it's marking 25:45 competition so now imagine what a change 25:48 would be like for a young black American 25:51 to grow up in a society where they don't 25:53 have to settle for the worst schools the 25:55 worst healthcare the worst job or likely 25:57 to be subjugated the worst carceral 25:59 system on earth last point is something 26:01 I know we agree on I'll imagine what it 26:04 would be like for women if they were 26:06 more easily able to leave abusive 26:09 relationships or escape workplace 26:11 harassment with the help of strong 26:13 welfare state guarantees imagine our 26:16 future Einsteins and the vinci's 26:18 liberated from grinding poverty and 26:21 misery to pursue their great 26:22 intellectual and artistic work or forget 26:25 Einstein or DaVinci better yet imagine 26:28 ordinary people with ordinary abilities 26:31 having time after their twenty eight 26:33 hour work week to explore whatever 26:35 interests or hobbies director fancies or 26:37 simply enjoy the right to be bored the 26:40 deluge of bad poetry strange 26:42 philosophical blog posts that comedy 26:45 routines will sure be a sign of progress 26:51 every form of exploitation every form of 26:54 hierarchy from feudalism to slavery 26:56 onward have one seemed natural and 26:59 impossible to overcome one day I hope 27:03 people will look back at the needless 27:05 suffering in this abundant beautiful 27:07 planet of ours and recoil in horror 27:10 there is a different way there is a path 27:12 to freedom and I think that path 27:14 involves putting the market harnessing 27:18 the market by putting it behind 27:21 in the interest of human needs and 27:23 creating society in which ordinary 27:25 people have the freedom to control their 27:28 workplaces to own it to engage with 27:33 others in such a way that is not 27:35 possible 27:36 under capitalism when libertarians say 27:39 that they're defending a free system 27:42 they're locking in a form of freedom in 27:46 which we could escape as individuals an 27:48 individual worker can become a 27:50 capitalist but they're accepting that we 27:53 cannot collectively all reach this level 27:56 of creativity and freedom that being a 28:00 capitalist means in the society what I'm 28:02 posing is not the restriction of freedom 28:04 what I'm posing as a society in which we 28:07 could all flourish or reach our 28:08 potentials thank you 28:11 [Applause] 28:19 now Jane will present his 15 minute case 28:22 for the negative well thanks it's a 28:30 pleasure to debate this issue with 28:33 Bhaskar Sankara 28:35 Bhaskar became a socialist at age 28:37 fourteen and for me it happened at age 28:40 four I was a red diaper baby since my 28:44 mother was a card-carrying member of the 28:47 Communist Party and I have her FBI file 28:50 FBI file to prove it you could tell who 28:53 the FBI agents were in the party because 28:56 they were the only ones who paid their 28:58 dues on time and now at age fourteen I 29:02 distanced myself for my mother's Soviet 29:05 loyalties and adopted the vision of the 29:08 Democratic Socialist with whom Bhaskar 29:10 also associates socialist values are 29:13 still a part of me even though I've 29:15 abandoned conventional socialism because 29:18 I've struggled with the issue of freedom 29:21 I've recognized not just that capitalism 29:25 is more effective than socialism in 29:28 making freedom possible under Bhaskar 29:31 socialism the exercise of freedom would 29:34 be impossible but here's the good news 29:37 capitalism makes it possible for Bhaskar 29:41 to achieve socialism without tears 29:44 unconventional capitalist socialism that 29:47 will be far truer to the value of 29:49 freedom and to the other values that 29:52 Baskar espouses of equality and 29:54 democracy and my proposed route to 29:58 unconventional capitalist style 30:00 socialism will be a lot easier to 30:02 achieve than bass cars chosen route bass 30:06 goes to Tesco defines conventional 30:08 socialism in his essay will socialists 30:11 take my Kenny Loggins records his quote 30:14 socialist vision requires quote 30:17 abolishing private ownership of the 30:20 things we all need and use factories 30:24 banks offices natural resources 30:27 utilities communication and 30:29 transportation Orford infrastructure and 30:31 replacing it with 30:32 social ownership unquote Bhaskar would 30:37 therefore abolish private ownership of 30:39 the means of production which we do all 30:42 need and use although you can keep 30:44 personal property like Kenny Loggins 30:46 records now now let's define capitalism 30:52 capitalism is a system in which private 30:55 property rights in the means of 30:56 production are both permitted and 30:59 protected by law under bhaskar socialism 31:02 it would be unlawful for someone to 31:05 forcibly take you Kenny Loggins records 31:07 but it would also be unlawful to own 31:10 factories stores and offices under 31:13 capitalism would it would be unlawful 31:16 for someone to take your factory office 31:19 or store but otherwise the exercise of 31:23 property rights under capitalism 31:25 consists of a series of wide-open 31:28 choices about the way people organize 31:31 their enterprise how they pay themselves 31:33 and the goals they pursue Baska seems to 31:38 think that the only conceivable goal 31:40 under capitalism is the pursuit of 31:43 profit but that isn't even true today 31:46 just for starters of the nearly 30 31:49 million small business owners in the 31:51 u.s. probably about 10 million can 31:53 hardly be said to be pursuing profit 31:56 after they pay themselves as wage 31:58 earners servicing their own enterprise 32:00 there is no profit left over their 32:03 motivation is not profit but the 32:05 exercise of their freedom to run a 32:08 restaurant book store food truck grocery 32:10 store podcast blog or what have you war 32:15 the motive can be the practice of 32:16 religious freedom as with the Amish 32:18 Mennonites and acetic Jews or the motive 32:21 can be to live in a productive community 32:23 as with a kibbutzim in Israel or the 32:25 communal movement of the 1970s spawned 32:29 by the new left of which I was a part 32:32 the huge nonprofit sector includes 32:36 Jacobin magazine and the solo forum 32:39 basco and i commit funds to rent offices 32:42 and equipment from owners of that 32:44 property and we raise revenue 32:46 from a combination of product sales and 32:49 voluntary donations from people who gain 32:51 satisfaction by paying us to provide our 32:55 products as I believe Bhaskar recently 32:58 acknowledged publicly he is a capitalist 33:01 we are both capitalist and neither of us 33:04 is motivated by profit the point then is 33:08 that under capitalism you can run your 33:11 enterprise according to any of a whole 33:13 range of objectives each worker can draw 33:16 the same wage if everybody chooses all 33:20 that's required is that you cover your 33:22 costs which can be done through many 33:24 channels I'll talk about how Bhaskar can 33:27 capitalize on that in a minute in a 33:30 capitalist way but first let me explain 33:33 why freedom would have no chance under 33:36 his form of socialism for starters while 33:40 Bhaskar won't take on kenny loggins 33:42 records he will need to shut down the 33:45 nearly 50 billion in financing raised 33:48 every year through crowdfunding which 33:51 helps launch credit kenny loggins 33:53 wannabes he'll also need to outlaw the 33:56 many other private ways people raise 33:58 billions in funding to finance their 34:00 ventures and be prepared to imprison 34:03 those who defy the socialist law instead 34:07 economic decision-making would come 34:10 under democratic control so let's ask 34:14 how many muslim prayer rugs with the 34:17 Democratic majority of workers vote to 34:19 produce what share of construction 34:22 materials would a majority of workers 34:24 apportion to new mosques right now under 34:28 capitalism vegetarians and vegans 34:30 who together make up less than 10% of 34:33 the population have more options every 34:36 year what the majority of workers find a 34:38 need to produce vegan meat or milk 34:41 substitutes how important would worker 34:43 majorities consider hair products for 34:46 African Americans 34:48 Baskar has written that he wants 34:51 socialism to quote involve a commitment 34:54 to a free civil society especially for 34:58 oppositional voices unquote 35:01 admirable statement they Avast Bhaskar 35:03 but now imagine an oppositional voice 35:06 like mine that once the 35:08 democratically-elected planners to 35:10 commit resources to put on public 35:12 debates catering to libertarians who 35:14 support capitalism or an oppositional 35:17 voice that needs resources to publish 35:20 publicize the idea that the planners 35:22 themselves are corrupt will they really 35:25 back those who seek to criticize them 35:28 would Bhaskar really want to live in a 35:32 society in which birth control is 35:35 available if and only if a majority of 35:38 workers votes for it or would you prefer 35:41 a society in which private business can 35:44 produce contraceptives the Preferences 35:47 of a Democratic majority be damned if 35:50 contraception at every CVS and Walgreens 35:53 sounds better to bhaskar than popular 35:56 controlled he may actually be a less a 35:59 fair capitalist at heart or at least 36:02 he'll see why democratic socialism poses 36:05 a threat to the freedom he himself 36:08 treasures under capitalism the mere 36:11 existence of buyers like Muslims vegans 36:14 Orthodox Jews and libertarians like me 36:17 gives rise to suppliers of their needs 36:20 the litmus test of people who believe in 36:24 freedom is that they are willing to 36:26 tolerate the propagation propagation of 36:28 ideas and practices they dislike the 36:32 intolerance have no problem 36:33 welcoming ideas and practices they do 36:36 like as a believer in freedom Bhaskar 36:40 might have noticed the intolerant strain 36:43 in all societies including this one and 36:46 yet he wants us all to take our chances 36:49 with the potentially intolerant tyranny 36:52 of the majority to which we must all 36:54 respond no in Thunder the right to 36:58 private ownership of the means of 36:59 reduction is essential to freedom but 37:03 the freedom of course can be curbed by 37:05 repressive institutions and to a great 37:07 extent we're seeing that today but 37:10 without the right to private ownership 37:12 freedom doesn't stand 37:14 chance to begin with the throttling 37:17 under freedom of freedom under bhaskar 37:19 socialism would probably be worse than 37:22 I've described realistically that's 37:26 because most of us will not have enough 37:28 hours in the day or even any great 37:31 desire to closely monitor the detailed 37:34 decisions of the the democratically 37:36 elected planning boards the planners 37:38 will have to deal with complex supply 37:40 chains and must have the power to 37:43 reallocate workers from coops that need 37:45 to contract to others that need to 37:48 expand and here's why the planners will 37:50 have a perfect excuse for rejecting 37:52 projects they don't like the economic 37:56 reality of scarcity by scarcity I mean 37:59 the fact that what everybody wants 38:01 always adds up to more than there is 38:05 they can therefore reject projects they 38:07 don't like on the factual grounds that 38:10 the resources are simply not available 38:14 here's one happy outcome for Bhaskar 38:17 socialism those oppositional voices will 38:20 start asking for permission to solicit 38:23 funds from independent sources and with 38:25 those funds they'll launch their 38:27 products choosing to sink or swim in the 38:30 competitive marketplace on their own as 38:32 a lover of freedom 38:34 Basco will help lead the capitalist 38:37 counter-revolution to restore their 38:39 rights as he starts realizing that 38:42 freedom and private property rights are 38:44 inseparable 38:46 so crowdfunding will make a huge 38:48 comeback and a thousand other capitalist 38:51 flowers will be allowed to bloom I can 38:54 save Bhaskar the agony of going down 38:57 this route he is written quote workers 39:01 at all levels know how to make things 39:03 society needs that can run their 39:06 workplaces collectively cutting out the 39:08 middlemen who own private property 39:11 unquote so Bhaskar let's talk about how 39:15 workers under your leadership can cut 39:18 out those middlemen and build socialism 39:21 in the here and now by owning that 39:23 private property you could tap the power 39:27 of the average 39:28 the bottom half of income receivers in 39:31 the US account for one third of all 39:35 consumer spending and the bottom 39:37 four-fifths for nearly two thirds 39:39 imagine that Bhaskar could assemble a 39:41 minority accounting for just one-fifth 39:43 of consumer spending dedicated to 39:46 patronizing firms run according to 39:48 socialist values they would have a 39:51 consumer economy larger than all but a 39:53 relative handful of countries their 39:56 vision would be to create a huge sub 39:58 economy of interconnected firms 40:00 dedicated to socialist practices 40:02 Bhaskar has written that workers would 40:05 reject employment by capitalists quote 40:07 if given a fair alternative well 40:11 according to the Basque are then firms 40:13 owned and operated by workers would 40:15 provide that fair alternative so other 40:18 workers would join dedicated the 40:20 dedicating their savings and consumer 40:23 dollars to the worker owned firms firms 40:25 could be bootstrap through crowdfunding 40:26 money could be borrowed through the tax 40:29 advantage medium of employee stock 40:31 ownership plans there's also the 40:33 potential to tap the three point four 40:36 trillion in pension fund money currently 40:39 held by labor unions in the US and the 40:42 41 trillion held by unions worldwide 40:45 here's one's tractive a strategy the 40:48 profit margins of existing corporations 40:50 average 15% of revenue so the movement 40:54 commands so that if the movement 40:56 commands just 20 percent of the consumer 40:58 dollar it could target companies with 41:00 boycotts wipe out their profits and 41:02 acquire them on the cheap boycotting has 41:05 an honorable tradition going back to 41:07 Martin Luther King and Rehana Gandhi and 41:09 boycotts are free-market acts performed 41:13 by consenting adults by capitalist means 41:16 instead bhaskar wants to play the ugly 41:20 game of politics by trying to win voting 41:23 majorities to improve socialism top-down 41:26 through government edict my plan can 41:28 happen much sooner 41:29 since the minority will be all that is 41:31 needed to get the revolution going and 41:33 it would be a bottom up capitalist 41:35 revolution brought about people who walk 41:38 the walk rather than just talk the talk 41:40 we 41:41 capitalists could not object since it 41:43 would not infringe on anyone's exercise 41:45 of private property rights in capital 41:48 goods as a believer in freedom bhaskar 41:52 has no choice but to follow the route 41:54 I've outlined to build his socialist 41:56 vision in the here-and-now that was in 41:59 fact the goal of many of us in the new 42:01 left in the 1970s and we failed but that 42:06 doesn't necessarily mean that bhaskar 42:09 shouldn't try so VASCAR let's start 42:12 talking about building socialism through 42:14 capitalist means the only means worth 42:17 employing for freedom's sake now since 42:22 we know that VASCAR socialism the 42:28 abolition of private ownership of the 42:30 means of production is a non-starter 42:32 that it will suppress freedom since we 42:35 know that's the route the only route 42:37 that basco wants to go down this should 42:40 deal with most of his problems with 42:42 capitalism if he doesn't like the fact 42:45 that capitalists have too many rights 42:47 then boycott them organize you have the 42:50 power of the consumer behind you but if 42:54 he wants to talk about cherry-picking 42:58 socialist quasi socialist economies in 43:00 Europe that are fundamentally capitalist 43:02 then we can talk about that to the 43:05 Nordic countries of Bella's respect 43:07 property rights more than the u.s. so if 43:10 we replicate the Nordic countries we 43:13 will in certain respects be more 43:15 capitalist than we are now but bhaskar 43:18 again as a lover of freedom I asked you 43:21 to march in the direction of those of us 43:25 in the new left who tried to to to do 43:30 the capitalist experiment through 43:32 through capitalist means the the 43:35 opportunity is open to you so please 43:37 take it thank you 43:49 now we'll have five minutes of rebuttal 43:52 from Basco so from the outset of course 43:57 I appreciate jeans remarks for the 43:59 outsells I'm worried that libertarians 44:00 are losing sight of what they're 44:02 advocating for because profit is the aim 44:05 of all capitalists and capitalism would 44:08 not work a profit wasn't the aim of all 44:10 capitalist it's not their aim dividends 44:14 isn't the aim of all off capitalists 44:16 they don't want to necessarily all get 44:18 personally filthy rich but once you're 44:20 engaged market competition they need 44:22 money for expansion they need money to 44:24 guard against depreciation they need 44:27 money to develop new techniques in order 44:30 to be competitive in the market against 44:32 ur potential competitors all capitalists 44:34 need profits the search for profits is 44:36 what actually makes your system your 44:38 system works so I find it quite quite 44:41 dubious that that basic point is is now 44:43 lost upon upon libertarians now as it 44:47 relates to my vision of a just society 44:49 I'll break into both the economic sphere 44:52 and the political sphere and the 44:53 Piccolo's sphere I imagine that we of 44:56 course need to have a productive role 44:57 for finance in other words there needs 44:59 to be some sort of way to bring new 45:01 products and services to to market 45:05 because I do believe that there will be 45:06 a role for the market under under 45:09 socialism I basically believe that there 45:13 should be a bedrock welfare state 45:16 something similar to what you have in 45:17 Scandinavian social democracies so 45:19 that's the state that I mentioned before 45:20 we're huge spots of life Rd commodified 45:23 so basic social rights are granted to 45:26 people just by virtue of being born but 45:29 then those should there has to be a 45:30 sphere where there's market competition 45:33 underway where worker control firms are 45:36 competing with each other 45:37 and producing consumer products if you 45:41 want to create a new firm you'd be able 45:44 to do stuff without recourse to private 45:46 capital because there could be 45:48 state-owned banks that are using 45:50 objective measures based on 45:52 profitability and other other factors 45:54 maybe also incorporating certain 45:55 ecological factors like a cost of 45:57 externalities I decide what to fund what 46:00 not to fund but I see this largely a 46:02 technic 46:02 can be politicized process and the idea 46:06 is not actually quite foreign to even 46:08 certain forms of of capitalism in which 46:10 there are state-run Development Bank's 46:12 that are not run so differently than 46:15 private banks only regulated quite quite 46:18 a bit differently but essentially what 46:21 that's emitting is so there has to be a 46:22 price for firm failure there has to be a 46:24 price for inefficiency I guess the 46:26 difference in this case is that the 46:28 price for failure isn't going to be 46:29 utter destitution for the workers who 46:33 are controlling their own own firms 46:34 rather they'll be able to fall onto the 46:37 safety net of a welfare state and the 46:40 state could then try to encourage people 46:42 into new sectors that are more dynamic 46:44 through some form of like active labor 46:46 market policies yeah it's not a radical 46:49 experiment it's social democracy plus 46:52 worker controlled spheres and the 46:55 decommodification and role for 46:57 democratic planning there would be there 46:58 would be only there at the I would 47:00 imagine at the commanding heights of the 47:02 economy so other socialists have 47:04 different views but this is this is my 47:07 view I'm not asking you to leap blindly 47:09 into society youyou can't imagine I'm 47:12 asking to imagine Scandinavia and 47:14 imagine then the addition of instead of 47:18 private ownership affirms worker 47:20 controlled firms now I keep mentioning 47:23 this again maybe because this is a new 47:25 tactic of libertarians to just say oh 47:27 well in fact this thing that we've been 47:30 complaining about for 20 30 or 40 years 47:32 is now all of a sudden extremely 47:34 extremely capitalist and I don't have 47:36 time to get into the into the debate but 47:40 fundamentally the trajectory of actually 47:43 building what I describe as democratic 47:45 socialism has happened through the 47:47 creation of political parties and trade 47:49 unions and the seizure of this state so 47:52 in Scandinavian almost 50 years of 47:54 uninterrupted role in Sweden the Swedish 47:56 Social Democratic Party deeper modified 48:00 huge swathes of the economy and created 48:02 a large welfare state they were still 48:04 dependent on private industry they did 48:06 so largely through sectoral bargaining 48:07 between workers and capitalists now at a 48:11 certain point this system hit its 48:13 contradictions there's many reasons why 48:15 this happened but 48:16 one of them is simply that workers were 48:18 given too much too many rights they 48:20 started demanding things that capital 48:21 couldn't seed there was different ways 48:24 to resolve the crisis one was the 48:25 rightward movement of social democracy 48:27 reconciling themselves to capitalism the 48:30 other way was pushing for a deeper 48:32 richer form of socialism which what was 48:35 actually ironically because he mentioned 48:37 pension funds it was through a plan to 48:39 socialized the investment power of 48:41 capital through pension funds so we have 48:44 been pursuing that route pension funds 48:46 and other things are our route from 48:48 social democracy to democratic socialism 48:50 we were doing so through the state and 48:52 through the creation of political 48:54 parties so we don't need new left 48:57 communal fantasies or crowdfunding or 49:00 whatever else we have a clearer complex 49:03 but but proven route from the 1930s 49:06 onward that we've been pursuing as 49:08 democratic socialists around to our 49:10 vision of socialism 49:13 [Applause] 49:17 five minutes of rebuttal from the 49:19 negative well back in the 1970s basco we 49:23 didn't understand economics that well 49:25 either 49:26 the bhaskar doesn't seem to think Vasco 49:30 doesn't seem to think that he and I are 49:31 capitalists and he does even though 49:34 Vasco recently was involved as a as a 49:38 capitalist with the finding of a firm 49:40 Bhaskar 49:41 depreciation is a cost it it's a you you 49:46 don't make a profit by paying for your 49:47 depreciation you should learn that when 49:50 you you and I are renting offices and 49:52 they depreciate and the rent that we pay 49:55 has to pay for depreciation no 49:57 capitalist gets profits out of 49:58 depreciation that's a cost so you may 50:01 now we at the Silla forum and Bhaskar at 50:04 a Jacobin is bringing in new technology 50:07 he he's actually planning a movie he's 50:09 planning a book we're planning to expand 50:11 and we don't make any profit but 50:13 obviously we raise revenue for that so 50:15 this idea of VAS cars that you need that 50:19 you need profit profit obviously the 50:21 profit and loss system I believe is 50:23 indeed highly productive but it's a 50:25 matter of choice under capitalism it's 50:28 not something that it has to be imposed 50:31 on people if you want to run a company 50:33 that's profit-making as most people do 50:36 that's fine 50:37 but many many people just run their 50:39 businesses and earn a salary from it and 50:41 Bhaskar if they need money to innovate 50:44 or expand they raise the money if they 50:46 need to pay the depreciation as every 50:48 capitalist must they have to pay for 50:50 that too but they don't make any profit 50:52 out of it they just raise funds for 50:55 those things so please get your economic 50:58 straight capitalism is just a series of 51:00 choices private ownership of the means 51:01 of production to do what you want with 51:05 that private ownership now Bhaskar has 51:07 now used that ugly word state-owned 51:10 banks Bhaskar has told us we don't need 51:13 crowdfunding ok you don't know you don't 51:16 only don't need it Bhaskar I assume it's 51:19 going to be unlawful I assume you're 51:21 gonna forcibly shut it down because it's 51:24 evil because it raises money for people 51:26 to own and operate private capital you 51:30 want stay 51:31 owned banks and you said hey look we 51:33 have that well you know what that is 51:34 baska that's the ugly thing with 51:37 libertarians called crony capitalism or 51:40 I prefer to call it capitalism after 51:43 what my uncle Abe the socialists used to 51:46 call it state-owned banks of deciding on 51:50 and evaluating your profit potential 51:52 these state-owned banks are going to do 51:55 that and we're gonna trust them we can't 51:57 use crowdfunding we can't use any 51:59 alternatives my solo forum is gonna go 52:02 before these state-owned banks and 52:04 they're gonna be then if they're going 52:05 to be people with vision and they're 52:07 gonna be evaluating my potential it's 52:09 going to be a totally fair process and 52:11 if they turn me down I'll know that well 52:14 my my freedom has been conserved 52:16 well that is craft ilysm that's the rule 52:19 by elites now you mentioned the pension 52:21 fund deal in Sweden I'm talking about 52:24 the voluntary movement of people's into 52:28 socialism I am in a friendly way trying 52:31 to call your bluff what I'm trying to 52:34 ask you to do is to get consumers they 52:38 have enormous power well as I said the 52:40 bottom half control one-third of all 52:43 consumer spending I'm asking you to get 52:46 them to voluntarily do it and not take 52:49 away the freedom of people of Kenny 52:52 Loggins and Kenny Loggins wannabes who 52:55 do want to raise money through 52:56 crowdfunding 52:57 a venture capital firms who do want to 52:59 raise money of all the dispersed 53:01 information we have out there that 53:03 capitalism assembles no in Thunder to 53:07 your state-owned banks bhaskar now apart 53:11 from that you mentioned Sweden as though 53:13 oh we libertarians just lately learned 53:16 that their cattles well the Nordic 53:18 countries have been brought up and 53:19 indeed the fundamentally kappa whatt 53:21 capitalist when the prime minister of 53:23 Denmark said no we are not socialists he 53:25 knew what he was talking about but 53:27 Bhaskar what you are doing is 53:29 cherry-picking these countries you you 53:33 are ignoring Spain Greece Italy Portugal 53:35 you're ignoring Venezuela you're 53:38 ignoring all the all range of countries 53:41 that have chosen this route 53:44 you've decided ah the u.s. is going to 53:46 be like like like the Nordic countries 53:49 like the Swedes well Swedish Americans 53:51 live better than Swedes in Sweden and I 53:55 think that for example when it comes to 53:57 medical care will we really have 53:59 Medicare for all or we will we have the 54:02 Veterans Administration for all that 54:05 wonderful government-run medical care 54:08 system that's been that's turned into a 54:11 charnel-house a bureaucratic killing 54:13 that that's what can also happen under 54:17 such regimes but again bhaskar learn 54:19 capitalism is all about choices it's not 54:22 necessarily about profits learn your 54:24 economics and March in the right 54:26 direction toward volunteerism as a lover 54:29 of freedom thank you 54:31 [Applause] 54:40 so in a moment I am gonna open up the 54:43 floor to audience questions so if people 54:45 from the top honest up make their way 54:47 down you can line up in front of the two 54:49 microphones there but before we go into 54:51 the audience questions and while they're 54:53 making their way down I do want to give 54:55 our debaters the opportunity to ask each 54:57 other a question if you have any so 55:00 design yeah yeah so Jane if you wanted 55:02 to go ahead 55:06 Vasko in a recent tweet you wrote 55:09 capitalism is bad I told those workers 55:12 that I just fired 55:14 how's that for freedom now you have also 55:17 written that in your system of socialism 55:19 there will be worker owned cooperative 55:21 still competing in a regulated market my 55:25 question is this let's say that there 55:27 are worker on cooperatives having 55:29 trouble competing in the regulated 55:31 market and that these coops decide to 55:33 fire workers who are not pulling their 55:35 weight and to recruit other workers who 55:37 are more qualified their aim would be to 55:40 make their coops better able to compete 55:42 in the regulated market would you allow 55:44 the firings to happen well first of all 55:47 I never said that we actually haven't 55:49 ever fired a worker I mean we haven't 55:53 had to but we do have procedures to do 55:55 so through progressive discipline I 55:57 imagine be the same saying in a worker 55:58 controlled firm where workers are 56:00 shareholders rather than wage laborers 56:05 so in other graves there's a verbal 56:07 warning that there's written warnings 56:09 with points of action then there's so on 56:12 you know force that progressive 56:13 discipline it's very common 56:15 i I think that it's it is a necessary 56:17 part in other words there is both the 56:20 calculation debate issue that socialism 56:23 has faced but there's also incentive 56:25 issues and they both need to be 56:27 addressed and I think having firm 56:29 failure and also having some mechanism 56:34 for internal governments governance 56:36 doesn't involve you know progressive 56:39 disciplinary firing for for 56:41 inefficiencies would be necessary in any 56:44 market socialist system while we're 56:46 still living in conditions of relative 56:48 scarcity which we are today would you 56:50 allow a firm to downsize severely I cut 56:53 one 56:53 it's death if it's having trouble 56:55 competing yes of course I mean these of 56:58 course I mean the firms will need to be 57:01 competitive in the market the question 57:02 is what happens when you fail will it be 57:04 utter destitution or will you land into 57:07 the arms of a welfare state that will be 57:11 able to take care of your necessities 57:13 and then get you if you're willing to go 57:15 back into the competitive marketplace so 57:17 in other words we want both voice and 57:19 exit for workers we want them to be able 57:20 to escape the workplace as much as 57:23 possible - do you think that Spain 57:33 do you think Spain Portugal Italy Sweden 57:36 Denmark Norway and and in Iceland are 57:40 fundamentally capitalist countries well 57:42 yes of course they're ok they're all 57:44 capitalist countries I would say that 57:45 this we there there's three different 57:49 you consider in this in this simple way 57:52 there were social democratic movements 57:55 in in Sweden for a time and and in 57:58 across Scandinavia they aspired to world 58:00 after capitalism in fact what they 58:03 managed to do is deliver doses of 58:04 socialism within capitalism but while 58:07 delivering these doses of socialism 58:09 within capitalism they built towards a 58:12 sort of crisis and at this crisis point 58:14 the left-wing of these these movements 58:17 in these parties push for a way to 58:19 actually resolve these crises by going 58:22 beyond capitalism well a right-wing saw 58:25 the easier route and the more viable 58:28 route as taking a step or two backwards 58:32 and trying to restore firm profitability 58:36 and and and so on so I think the road to 58:40 more radical socialism lies through 58:42 social democracy and isn't counterpose 58:44 to it but what I'm interested in is what 58:47 these parties were who is their class 58:50 base and what they aspired to do what 58:52 they managed to accomplish and there's 58:53 good and bad lessons I think some of 58:55 those countries you mentioned were not 58:56 in fact led by social democratic 58:59 movements in some countries like in 59:01 Germany the welfare state was brought 59:02 about by christian democracy looked 59:04 quite a bit different in the u.s. our 59:06 welfare state was brought up 59:07 through a variety of ways but largely by 59:10 a social Liberal Party so it's 59:11 constituted on a different basis and the 59:13 universal welfare states of Scandinavia 59:15 so and do you have any question the 59:18 South Stream well I have a series of 59:20 assertions but I cannot phrase the 59:24 question no I will I will concede pass 59:35 go you can make an assertion and say 59:39 I'll add that to the end I would have 59:44 one very quick clarification if you just 59:46 give me one clarification and that's 59:49 simply that I think when we think about 59:51 a political sphere under socialism we 59:53 again don't have to make this leap into 59:55 this this crazy feature no one can 59:56 imagine I think it'll consists of a 59:59 bedrock of individual rights that are 60:02 that are that are guaranteed to all all 60:04 people freedom of speech and so on the 60:06 one right that is very prevalent it's a 60:10 major feature of this society that I 60:12 don't think would be given is the right 60:13 to employ other people in wage labour so 60:16 if you want a criticism it's it's it's 60:17 on that I think that in the end the 60:21 political so that's a moral and ethical 60:24 belief that's the ideological part of 60:27 being of being a socialist I will 60:29 concede is is is entirely ideological in 60:32 that I think that in a normative sense 60:37 hierarchy and exploitation are bad and 60:39 to whatever extent it can be mitigated 60:41 we should mitigate it 60:44 so some forms of hierarchy will always 60:46 need so if you have a small child if 60:49 you're a parent you wield authority over 60:51 that child that's acceptable 60:54 unacceptable form of hierarchy in my 60:55 mind but it's a hierarchy that's 60:57 mediated that's control okay so in 61:08 addition to that there'll be a political 61:10 they'll be representative democracy plus 61:12 certain directive erotic inputs but that 61:14 will be similar to what you have in 61:15 Sweden or referendums in California or 61:17 so on so you'll be free to have the soho 61:19 forum you'll be 61:20 to fundraise for other things as long 61:23 for the state-owned banks boom you 61:26 shouldn't get crowdfunding state-owned 61:30 bankers the crap Atlas Bhaskar what do 61:32 you want well if you engage in 61:34 crowdfunding today you don't have to do 61:35 it through a JPMorgan Chase you could do 61:37 quite you would have fun yes sure it's 61:47 not used to create an enterprise that 61:49 employs wage labor wage labor I see so 61:52 in other words if somebody voluntarily 61:55 wants to work for me at the Seoul forum 61:57 what happens and insists on doing does 61:59 that person go to prison so he continues 62:01 to do that to violate your rule 62:03 what happens then Bhaskar I if I decide 62:07 to go to you one day and I said I want 62:10 to work for the Soho forum for the rest 62:12 of my life and and I don't want to get 62:15 paid well I want you to provide food and 62:18 housing 62:19 what would you be allowed to again sir 62:21 an employment relationship like that 62:22 under this capital society 62:24 no what do now you just answer your own 62:27 question look capless at 15 consent to 62:30 voluntary actions between people you 62:32 don't allow that will allow those you 62:34 are a lover of freedom you're doing 62:36 double thing you hate freedom people 62:38 should not do voluntary acts people want 62:40 to work for me that want to work for you 62:41 don't you have employees but aren't you 62:43 accomplice with employees no I'm 62:45 actually not even I'm a technically an 62:47 employee of a Board of Directors but you 62:49 know I work so in other words what I'm 62:54 saying is that the employment 62:55 relationship under capitalism is already 62:57 regulated I'm posing a symbol I a 63:00 relationship in which this this thing 63:02 wage labour is no longer allowed don't 63:06 you realize that you've backed away from 63:07 my question if somebody voluntarily 63:09 wants to work for me for what I pay and 63:12 under my and says I want to do it you're 63:15 gonna throw that person in prison if 63:16 that person does it against your wishes 63:19 and values is that what you're gonna do 63:21 how are you going to enforce your rules 63:23 Bhaskar how is that gonna happen well I 63:26 think that in a society in which most 63:28 people can do similar labor to what 63:30 you're describing but actually be 63:31 shareholders actually own 63:34 shares and receive dividends from a firm 63:35 I'm not sure they would choose to to do 63:38 that well I I think I directly answer 63:40 your question well that's why I'm 63:42 calling your bluff Bhaskar I'm trying to 63:44 suggest to you that you can work on that 63:47 and you can achieve it you could have 63:48 worker owned firms in under capitalism 63:52 any time you want just get people to be 63:54 impressed by your values there wasn't 63:58 just walk the walk and quit talking 64:00 there was mass there was mass support 64:02 for the for the minor pension funds 64:05 Creed there were mass support for the 64:07 minor plan in Sweden it would have so 64:09 slowly socialized production again 64:12 Bhaskar you are a political a Politico 64:15 you can't talk the talk of individuals 64:17 of individual movements you want 64:19 top-down either 64:21 I'm trying to tell you quit playing the 64:24 ugly game of politics but because that 64:26 can give you Donald Trump I'm trying to 64:28 suggest to you try to impress the 64:30 grassroots with your values and then 64:32 organize them the way King did the way 64:34 Mahatma Gandhi did and and then owned 64:36 firms and boycott them and take them 64:38 over work it from the bottom up Bhaskar 64:41 because your lover of freedom so you you 64:45 said this is what happens when you don't 64:46 let him I don't know but you said you 64:50 said that the pathway is through 64:52 consumer power and boycotts right and 64:55 where does your consumer power come from 64:58 okay if not the amount of money you have 65:00 which is a result of battles about 65:02 winners of our launch of economics one 65:05 third of the consumer dollar comes from 65:07 the bottom half nearly two thirds comes 65:10 in the bottom four fish repeat that 65:12 after me Bhaskar because apparently it's 65:14 something you don't know learn some 65:16 economics 65:17 [Applause] 65:20 okay well Jim you're just encouraging 65:27 men let's let's get to the audience in a 65:29 second I do in a more monetary stage 65:31 right I'm talking about the United 65:33 States 65:34 the revolution now I going to go to 65:36 audience question sorry what all right 65:42 so over here are this gentleman in the 65:45 front you want it I'll go ahead and ask 65:46 your first question you can address 65:47 either of the debaters can we turn that 65:52 microphone on if it's not already by the 65:58 way I really appreciate the be passion 66:01 up here is this not entertaining the Q&A 66:10 I'm very excited to see what what 66:11 happens all right go ahead not mark mark 66:13 Skousen I'd like to get your take on 66:15 both of you on John Mackey's book 66:19 conscious capitalism where he develops 66:22 the stakeholder philosophy of working 66:25 together and this is wholefoods the CEO 66:28 of Whole Foods where they have teams 66:31 that make decisions on salaries of these 66:34 employees so you have a form of social 66:38 democracy or democratic capitalism 66:40 already in the conscious capitalism 66:43 model stakeholder philosophy I'd like to 66:46 get your take on that new approach to 66:51 capitalism this is a question for both 66:53 the debaters socialists way back one 67:01 push at a time so I would say there's 67:05 different ways to organize capitols 67:07 workplaces some could be extremely 67:09 hierarchical some could be more 67:11 horizontal my objection to the Capitals 67:14 a workplace is the fact that it's it's 67:17 privately owned by by individuals and it 67:20 inherently relies on a form of 67:23 exploitation I don't mean to describe a 67:26 literal labor theory of value my quick 67:29 thing that I'm saying but rather that 67:30 it's a good framework to understand how 67:31 this works simply if if gene is employed 67:34 by me I'm not sure I would based on his 67:37 temperament but he might be might be a 67:40 true great union organizer he might be a 67:42 rabble rouser 67:43 but and and he's stable employed for for 67:47 ten years by me and I'm paying in 67:50 fifteen dollars an hour over the course 67:51 of this ten years then you could 67:53 probably assume one thing based on that 67:54 relationship that jeans probably worth 67:56 more to me than you know than the $15 an 68:00 hour I'm I'm paying him and we're gonna 68:04 have certain battles over how much money 68:06 is gonna be be paid and and this is this 68:10 is the the root of a lot of the 68:12 pressures that existed every workplace 68:14 you know people want to get paid more 68:16 they know there's certain limits and 68:18 what they could get paid in other words 68:19 gene can't them at a hundred dollars an 68:20 hour because if my firm is no longer 68:22 profitable then none of us are employed 68:24 but but there's you know there's this 68:27 tension that exists in all workplaces 68:28 they certainly exists at Whole Foods 68:30 where there has been worker actions 68:33 where people are demanding kind of 68:35 different things but the main thing 68:36 they're demanding is higher wages and 68:39 more autonomy and no capitalists no 68:42 matter how conscious they are gonna is 68:44 gonna give that to them it's gonna be 68:45 the result of a political battle on the 68:47 shop floor it's not gonna be you know 68:49 decided by a theory or ideology of this 68:52 first and a capitalism of that version 68:53 of capitalism well in answer the 68:56 question certainly John Mackey's idea of 68:59 conscious capitalism is is better than a 69:03 lot of other ideas it seems to work well 69:05 at Whole Foods and I support it I don't 69:09 know if it's valid for all firms I can 69:12 want to observe that VASCAR lives at 69:16 least granted that if he was a 69:18 capitalist and I was a worker he'd be 69:20 afraid of me even though I would just be 69:22 a worker so clearly there might be other 69:24 kinds of relationships that workers and 69:27 employees can have and again VASCAR 69:30 keeps ducking the two questions which is 69:33 why doesn't he create worker owned firms 69:37 if he doesn't like the firms owned by 69:40 handful of people that's quite possible 69:43 under this capitalism and would he 69:45 actually throw in prison people who 69:49 violate his values who choose to work 69:52 for fell through for capitalist firms 69:54 voluntarily Eve 69:56 though as I've said his quasi socialist 69:59 alternative would be available he ducks 70:01 that question as well someday hopefully 70:05 tomorrow he'll face those two questions 70:07 and see the light thank God okay next 70:10 question over here and just a reminder 70:12 if you're asking a question from the 70:13 floor don't give us statements make sure 70:15 that you're asking questions and keep it 70:17 short so my name is Jenny Brown um so I 70:22 wonder if both the speakers could 70:24 address the situations that we see on 70:27 the shop floor in for example production 70:31 companies in the US where it's no 70:34 degrees of freedom you have you're given 70:38 three minutes to urinate once a day 70:41 sometimes you have to wear diapers on 70:43 the line because you will be fired if 70:45 you go there are no choices about 70:50 whether you can have work overtime you 70:54 have to or you will lose your job so 70:58 just the the situation that is existing 71:01 right now under capitalism with private 71:04 ownership if you could just address the 71:07 working conditions that that is kicking 71:10 up and what percentage of workers do you 71:13 think work under those circumstances 71:14 about 20 percent 20 percent and yeah you 71:18 said in that's who are not allowed to 71:21 renew yes do not you know do you know we 71:23 don't even have 20 percent of the 71:24 workers in factories to begin with but 71:26 20 percent no not just factories some 71:28 schoolteachers have to bring their whole 71:30 class into the bathroom so that they can 71:33 pee oh right okay then all right okay 71:37 that's good 71:39 good to know I had to run out to pee 71:42 myself recently as you know so I have 71:45 two ties with that I'm sorry for this 71:47 stupid joke so best though do you want 71:49 to answer that or should I that's a 71:52 great job so far I mean they let you 71:53 keep gone well we have we have an 72:00 educational system that pays that that 72:03 pays nationwide ten thousand dollars a 72:06 student in New York it's twenty thousand 72:09 dollars a student so and that means that 72:13 for every 30 kids in a class in New York 72:15 there's 600 thousand dollars that could 72:17 be realized how much of it ends up in 72:20 the classroom nationwide there's 300 72:23 thousand dollars that could be realized 72:24 the schools are run by government 72:27 bureaucracies so that may explain why 72:30 despite the fact that there is that 72:33 that's spending on schooling in this 72:35 country is that a record high in 72:36 inflation-adjusted terms that may 72:39 explain why the problem that you've 72:41 suggested that you've talked about 72:43 exists that we may want to free it up 72:46 from government control and that's the 72:48 reason why poor people poor people are 72:51 over subscribing the charter schools and 72:54 the end of out your schools because they 72:56 spend their money so that kids do not 72:58 have to pee in the hole that's that's 73:00 the capitalist alternative which by the 73:01 way 15 percent of Swedish parents send 73:05 their kids to voucher schools and now 73:08 the other part of it is that oh you 73:10 should join with me as should Bhaskar in 73:13 trying to combat that the capitalism in 73:16 the labor markets to free the labor 73:18 market so that laborers have 73:20 alternatives government control on 73:23 behalf of special interests of some of 73:25 so many professions is locked up to be a 73:28 beautician to be a florist to be a 73:31 plumber do you know how difficult it is 73:33 to become a plumber in New York because 73:36 of the states afforded plumbers Union 73:37 all of those alternatives should work 73:40 should open up for laborers but they are 73:42 closed because unfortunately people like 73:45 Vasco thinks that government control 73:46 cadet all this credentialism and all 73:49 these barriers that make it difficult 73:50 for laborers to shop around 73:52 to get better jobs to work under better 73:55 working conditions are closed off to 73:57 them 73:57 that's the evils of capitalism that we 74:00 live in chairs are trying to fight and 74:02 that you should fight also so with 74:04 respect to the schools what you should 74:05 really fight really do is liberate all 74:08 of that money so that the $300,000 74:12 average can get into that classroom and 74:15 the kids the big peeing on gold-plated 74:17 urinals so the actual question was about 74:22 the conditions of huge segments of 74:25 American of American workers and it I 74:27 don't know the exact figure but it is it 74:29 is a large segment of American workers 74:31 and increasingly precarious jobs working 74:34 in factories with very limited rights 74:36 and the simple reason why it's like that 74:39 is because American unions are weaker 74:41 than its counterparts anywhere else in 74:43 the advanced capitalist world therefore 74:45 may American workers have the same 74:47 rights and are afforded the same dignity 74:49 as workers a very weak bargaining power 74:52 in the third world often and that's 74:54 that's that's a real reason and and if 74:57 you want to give people more rights if 74:59 you want to build union rights to say 75:02 that ok everybody deserves a five-minute 75:05 break every hour you know or whatever 75:07 whatever else is a very bare-bones 75:09 basics you have the very least fight for 75:12 the right to collectively bargain you 75:14 have to fight for the sort of 75:15 legislation that libertarians that big 75:18 capitalists that small capitalists 75:20 all have historically opposed and and my 75:24 only aside is on jeans two questions on 75:26 answer very quickly at a yes or no way 75:30 one is worker owned firms under 75:33 Capitol's and we're fine but they're 75:34 subjected to a lot of the same pressures 75:37 competitive pressures as as other as 75:40 other firms so we want to build a 75:42 society in which you have the bedrock 75:45 dica modifications that I talked about 75:46 where we have Medicare for all where we 75:48 have a certain basic education rights 75:51 and and so on so that's most of our 75:54 reform efforts are focused there seems 75:56 to you bhaskar then let me try to make 75:59 the same point the bottom half has asked 76:02 control of one third of the total 76:04 consumer dollar can 76:06 Zoomers spending could be dedicated to 76:08 those socialist firms and support them 76:11 in whatever way you want nearly 2/3 is 76:14 controlled by the bottom four-fifths 76:16 please learn some economics about the 76:18 power of the consumer that you can 76:21 marshal that could be a sub economy of 76:23 socialist firms and you could subject 76:25 them to whatever a economy of of 76:33 cooperatives that are thriving in places 76:36 like Spain Mondragon is a large 76:38 cooperative at one time was the sixth 76:40 largest business in in in Spain but 76:46 these these are subject to a lot of the 76:49 same a lot of the same competitive 76:51 pressures so I think in other words is 76:52 the difference between a cooperative 76:54 under capitalism and a worker controlled 76:56 firm under a post capital society where 76:59 capital no longer holds a power to 77:01 withhold investment where there's not a 77:02 separate class of people continually 77:04 trying to undermine refer reforms again 77:09 you're beating a hasty retreat you're 77:11 beating a hasty retreat just some 77:13 example about me what I'm trying to do 77:19 is trying to suggest to you the 77:21 potential in the American economy what 77:24 you can do we and the new left in thank 77:26 you so we didn't look at what others had 77:28 done badly we try to look at the 77:30 potential of what we can do look it in 77:33 the face and you'll see that let me 77:36 finish my answer your second question 77:38 please Jeanne you're from the new left 77:40 do you smoke weed in the 60s are you 77:43 wondering whether that explains well I'm 77:45 just saying that maybe maybe it's time 77:47 to get get back on it you know 77:50 so but on the second question no I don't 77:56 think I don't think I don't think 77:58 coercion would be would be necessary 78:01 well but but it's a process like that I 78:06 like that is necessary rasca would you 78:11 apply it what if people voluntarily 78:13 decide to work in conditions that you 78:15 don't like and they say no I want to do 78:17 it and then you said well you have to 78:19 stop doing no I can't stop doing it what 78:21 would you though then Bastar the it 78:24 would look the problem you are facing is 78:26 that we have the awful experience of 78:28 socialist societies most recently the 78:31 experiment of socialism in Venezuela 78:32 most recently what happened in China 78:35 that we don't have freedom lovers under 78:38 socialism so please give us a little bit 78:40 more assurances rather than vague 78:42 responses if it's necessary which you 78:44 throw people in prison for violating 78:46 your values the values which it's not 78:49 we're not writing a blueprint for there 78:51 for the future it's fine if I'm in 78:53 charge of a social society then of 78:55 course not 78:56 you know what exactly exactly that's why 78:59 I said it there'll be a social there'll 79:03 be a judicial system that'll have 79:05 certain criteria for when it throws 79:07 people in prison and all certain 79:09 criteria for what speech is allowed and 79:11 what's not and it will probably draw on 79:13 existing types of jurisprudence so for 79:15 example clear and present danger you 79:17 know it's not it's not a leap into the 79:21 unknown own future it's not as your zero 79:23 break with with the past we're saying 79:27 that there are certain spheres of life 79:29 that are right now only available that 79:31 people could pay but should be available 79:33 to everyone as part of their basic needs 79:35 we're saying that there are certain 79:36 forms of exploitation and oppression 79:38 that exists the world today that we 79:40 think we construct a society where it 79:41 doesn't exist 79:42 full-stop I think you said you would not 79:44 shut down a crowdfunding and that's good 79:47 to hear and and I think actually if you 79:49 ran the society bhaskar you'd very 79:51 quickly lead the capitalist 79:53 counter-revolution because you would get 79:55 sick and tired of those state-owned 79:57 banks that that are not granting people 80:00 opportunities yet that's what you would 80:02 do my 80:03 however Bhaskar is that maybe somebody 80:06 like you will not be in charge maybe the 80:09 best maybe the worst will get on top 80:11 maybe power-hungry people will but if 80:14 you were in charge 80:15 socialism won't last a month because you 80:18 would find how hateful it is because 80:20 you're a lover of freedom and we'll go 80:22 to the next audience question over here 80:25 this one's for Bhaskar although maybe 80:28 both chime in if there's time it would 80:32 be hard to stop him and to that point in 80:35 solidarity with Bhaskar I would support 80:36 state subsidized acupuncture session for 80:39 Eugene immediately following this event 80:41 sorry I'm sorry in 2017 the average 80:50 top-20 CEO comp was 66 million versus 80:55 the comparable average comp four for the 80:58 top 20 athletes of 62 million it's a 81:01 difference of about 6% those numbers 81:04 include options and bonus for CEOs and 81:06 include sponsorship pay for athletes 81:09 which group do you think creates more 81:11 positive value and prosperity for 81:13 society and do you think athlete 81:16 compensation and by extension celebrity 81:18 compensation which is very similar to 81:20 those levels deserve as much public 81:23 scrutiny as CEO pay I would say no I 81:26 don't even support a salary cap in 81:28 sports these are athletes that are 81:31 creating value and they should be renew 81:33 marae today they're creating they're 81:34 creating the value through their own 81:36 efforts and their own individual talents 81:38 and they're not creating value through 81:40 the labor of others so I think LeBron 81:44 James should be making many times more 81:45 than he was what he's earning now and at 81:50 the very least but obviously you know 81:53 he's collectively working on a team and 81:55 the point of any good collective 81:57 bargaining agreement is sometimes to 82:00 boost the conditions of the worst paid 82:03 or worst condition 82:05 players so in this case NBA players and 82:07 the G League and sometimes that means 82:10 kind of caps on on the the best-paid but 82:14 that's a collective democratic decision 82:16 that actually LeBron James was the you 82:18 know major figure in the players you 82:20 should point out the NBA players agreed 82:23 to the salary cap that they exact 82:25 underwriters collectively collectively 82:27 bargained yes not random I mean the 82:30 premise of your response is sort of that 82:31 it's random it's not random yeah yeah 82:33 yeah so the cap it said we don't need to 82:35 get sucked in I'm not worried about the 82:39 amount of money or the amount of wealth 82:41 that anyone wants that anyone got gets 82:45 it as a result of their exceptional 82:47 talent or ability obviously this is a 82:48 small percentage of society and also 82:51 that I think my conception of class is 82:54 not it's more relational than gradation 82:59 'el so in other words you could be a 83:03 capitalist and run a small firm of four 83:05 or five people and be struggling and 83:08 earn $30,000 a year or you could be a 83:10 worker in at a privileged sector or a 83:13 very capital-intensive sector like a 83:15 longshoreman and earn $90,000 a year and 83:19 I would consider one a worker and one 83:20 you know as some sort of small 83:22 capitalist yeah those are just two quick 83:27 observations those $30,000 capitalists 83:29 who were indeed legion with the people I 83:31 spoke about they are not they are not in 83:34 it for profit that's just simply drawing 83:36 a wage out of their business that pays 83:39 them for the services to their business 83:41 that's why that's another good example 83:46 of why not even today as private 83:49 ownership of the means of production 83:50 always pursued for profit again vascular 83:54 anionic capitalist the only thing I 83:55 would say to your question about 83:57 athletes are that again the crapola 84:00 system the the ways in which labor 84:03 mobility is limited which indeed it's 84:05 also limited by unions and the crapola 84:09 system whereby profits are privatized 84:12 and losses are socialized the best 84:14 example of that was Obama's bailout of 84:17 General Motors and Chrysler 84:20 again socializing losses which shafted 84:23 our workers in the south and favored 84:26 unions in Michigan because he was 84:28 courting the Michigan vote that's 84:30 capitalism and in the sports case the 84:33 the capitalism of government subsidizing 84:37 sports stadiums for these very rich 84:39 firms is this is an obviously an outrage 84:42 that VASCAR should also oppose up until 84:45 the 1950s the team's paid for their own 84:48 stadiums I'm a big James Dolan fan so I 84:51 won't oppose a great leader even people 84:59 it's okay with you all right next 85:02 question from the audience thank you my 85:04 name is Ray Harry yes I want to first 85:08 make an assertion and that assertion is 85:10 that your praise your assertion in the 85:13 form of a question well yes it's good 85:15 it's gonna be in a question yes it is 85:20 have to start over now I was interrupted 85:26 okay so the assertion is that it is 85:29 competitive capitalism that is creating 85:32 something an externality called global 85:35 warming and global warming is 85:37 threatening our very survival on this 85:39 planet 85:40 capitalism is responsible for this 85:42 capital it is competition competition 85:46 where all of us are competition creates 85:49 winners and losers and in this case this 85:52 externality is going to be such a losing 85:55 proposition for all of us that the human 85:57 race is going to be out of here and my 86:03 question is how do you address the issue 86:06 of competition creating such negative 86:11 situations for it automatically 86:13 structurally creates winners and losers 86:16 competition does it creates winners and 86:22 how does it create it creates bad 86:25 externalities what is your response to 86:27 this the one particular bad externality 86:30 is that competition creates 86:32 Vaska you had structurally looser so to 86:39 play to play devil's advocate in the 86:41 scenario just coming over to my side 86:43 that's good yeah to to turn the scenario 86:46 you played out you could find ways to 86:47 price in you know some of these these 86:51 effects through carbon taxing or whatnot 86:54 but I think as a whole the reason the 86:57 reason why capitalism creates these sort 87:01 of problems is less the market 87:02 competition end of it but the fact that 87:04 that grower died imperative of 87:06 capitalist firms isn't isn't restrained 87:08 I also would argue that under socialism 87:11 as I envisioned it where the consumer 87:13 sector for consumer goods is by worker 87:15 owned firms the same imperative doesn't 87:19 actually apply right because you're not 87:21 trying to maximize total revenue you say 87:28 you're not building these mega firms 87:29 what you're trying to do is maximize a 87:31 revenue per shareholder revenue per per 87:34 worker so you you might you know want a 87:36 firm of 4050 people which which would 87:38 solve part of that but I think in 87:40 general a society in which there is a 87:43 more robust responsive state where there 87:46 is a greater role for for elements of 87:49 planning and organizing certain aspects 87:52 of the economic plan of society which by 87:57 the way sounds very pernicious and scary 87:59 for those of you in the room that are 88:00 libertarians but most societies have 88:03 actually had industrial industrial plans 88:07 at one point another developing states 88:09 have all done at all within a capitalist 88:10 framework I think that kind of society 88:13 with more room for democracy and and 88:15 empowerment of ordinary people is 88:17 obviously going to be able to think 88:19 about the medium and long term effects 88:21 of of growth and development well I 88:27 think I think Bhaskar atleast did say 88:29 that that obviously you can have carbon 88:32 taxes you can rein it in clearly it's 88:35 not it's not capitalism that causes 88:37 global warming 88:38 it's industrialism and the the the the 88:42 Soviet Union was not capitalist it was 88:44 massively polluting 88:46 China competing with the United States 88:51 okay so that's why they did it okay all 88:54 right well quit well III think as Baskar 88:57 would agree and I don't have to disagree 88:59 with you I'd have to say that that 89:01 industrialism which involves the use of 89:03 fossil fuels it involves the it involves 89:08 the the heavy machinery involves all 89:12 kinds of things that that produce output 89:14 and under basco socialism they might not 89:17 want to wrap basket maximize revenue as 89:19 I just said under capitalism you don't 89:21 have to maximize for profit but if 89:23 you're going to put out stuff that 89:25 that's that's based on a fossil fuel 89:27 economy you're going to pollute and of 89:29 course they're ways of dealing with it 89:30 do you want to you are you saying that 89:32 the use of fossil fuels only happens 89:34 under capitalism sir no okay okay then 89:37 no that's good thank you answer my 89:39 question then the use of phosphorus is 89:41 what's polluting what's causing a woman 90:00 well no I I think it is true that that 90:03 under system like like capitalism 90:05 economic power does translate into into 90:08 political power and there are certain 90:09 lobbies preventing the emergence of new 90:13 technology but more important is the 90:15 fact that green renewable technology 90:16 there is a cross there is a cross cost 90:19 curve involved and I think that a more 90:22 proactive government pushed industrial 90:27 policy could could bring about an energy 90:29 transition and quicker I mean this is 90:31 not a rest well we needed Obama to 90:32 subsidize Solyndra because because but 90:35 but because we needed more capitalism 90:37 and again again basco talks about those 90:40 wonderful state-owned banks that really 90:42 scares me when he uses the word state 90:43 usually I didn't want to use that word 90:45 for Bhaskar because because usually they 90:47 like to say no no no that's the state 90:48 it's gonna be democratic councils 90:50 state-owned banks or capitalists and it 90:52 really depresses me that Bhaskar to lose 90:55 himself into thinking that those 90:57 state-owned banks will be the only place 90:59 we can go 90:59

• to raise money for the Soul form well 91:12 I think I think it is funny that gene 91:15 can summon the depths of the Gulag be 91:19 tougher wounds killing fields but 91:22 instead he's focusing on the North 91:23 Dakota 91:24 you know State Development Bank the 91:26 gentleman is yeah but you're saying 91:29 state-owned banks of this great 91:30 pernicious evil but you're not even if 91:35 you want if you want to abolish 91:37 everything other than state-owned banks 91:40 then you are going to suppress freedom 91:42 and the state-owned banks are not are 91:44 not the gulag they're not the pernicious 91:46 freedom but they're just a bunch of 91:48 people who are giving other people's 91:50 money away they're not putting money at 91:52 risk they are crapulous 91:54 they are not capitalist they are 91:56 obviously not what we want we want 91:58 crowdfunding you're not gonna bones 92:00 crowdfunding I thought you said 50 92:02 billion dollars a year of it you're not 92:04 going to abolish it I think if you were 92:07 going to make if I was gene I was gonna 92:09 make a case against democratic socialism 92:10 to young young Americans that are prone 92:12 to democratic socialism I would say this 92:14 if you pursue my route as a hyper 92:18 capitalist you're gonna find 5% growth 92:20 rates over the next century and yeah 92:22 we'll figure out a way to innovate our 92:23 way out of climate change you saw my 92:25 question if you pursue his route you're 92:27 gonna get three point five percent 92:28 growth and that 1.5 percent difference 92:31 is a matter of life or death for 92:32 hundreds of millions of people all 92:34 around the world I mean but instead 92:36 we're getting this this this whole 92:38 inventing of language or what he's not 92:40 even defending what he's here to defend 92:41 that's lost capitalism you should go a 92:44 little musical in a capitalist society 92:46 I'm sorry your side has built a society 92:49 obviously we tried to humanize it and 92:51 change it over time but you're living in 92:53 a capital society this is this is your 92:56 look please this is a thing that 92:58 vegetarians certainly love you but 93:00 you're but why don't you just come on 93:02 stage and take 93:03 no no Gigi don't don't put that offer 93:05 out there alright we've unfortunately 93:06 run out of time we've run out of time 93:09 here for Q&A but they you so much for 93:11 the questions I just don't mind that 93:14 obviously we've got closing statements 93:16 now but this is a very heavy issue that 93:19 we're not gonna solve in an in a 93:21 two-hour debate so there is wine and 93:23 cheese and everything afterwards where 93:25 you can continue to ask questions both 93:27 of them will be around but we have not 93:28 finished we have no rapping we now have 93:31 our five minutes closing statements from 93:33 the affirmative Abbas Carson Cara if you 93:35 wanted to go ahead and close up your 93:37 site thank you all for sticking around 93:43 thank you for moderating this it's an 93:45 unenviable task and I really do 93:48 appreciate thank you to to Jean for the 93:51 for the invitation actually he was very 93:54 persistent in getting me here he did 93:56 everything organizing it you know he 93:58 even gave me the pen that I'm using in 94:00 the debate so he was very cordial 94:01 setting it up and whatever else I really 94:03 do appreciate it and I appreciate the 94:05 the audience yes 94:07 he literally ripped his notebook in half 94:09 to give me something that I press on it 94:11 right on so is it yeah ID appreciate it 94:13 now capitalism of course has proved 94:16 remarkably durable far beyond the 94:18 expectations of socialists you know 100 94:22 plus plus years ago but from a different 94:25 perspective the history of working-class 94:27 politics since the days of Marx and 94:29 Engels has in fact been a great success 94:31 you know god I'm once again mentioned 94:34 God rested on the seventh day the labor 94:37 movement gave us the sixth off we went 94:40 from an era when capital ruled 94:42 unchallenged to one with powerful limits 94:45 on its conduct the 40-hour week labor 94:50 and environmental regulations and more 94:52 these reforms and the broader progress 94:55 of women's liberation and towards racial 94:58 equality are constantly under siege but 95:01 they happen we don't as I said before 95:04 live in the worst of all possible worlds 95:06 the world we live in as brutal and 95:09 unequal as it is has been made more 95:12 humane by class-conscious movements by 95:15 the efforts of 95:16 Democratic socialists this consolation 95:19 seems like a small one given how lofty 95:21 our ambitions still are but many not 95:25 gene obviously would agree that you know 95:28 socialists have always understood that 95:29 capitalism works they even proved 95:32 capable reforming some of his ugly 95:34 features but why would we want to repeat 95:38 the disasters of 20th century the 20th 95:40 century but once again struggling to go 95:42 beyond it and create a social system 95:44 I've tried to offer in a series of 95:48 scattered and increasingly erratic 95:50 interventions a few answers to that 95:52 question now the first is that the 95:55 tremendous suffering in the world today 95:57 demands a response capitalist 95:59 development has created mass abundance 96:02 but it hasn't met the needs of the most 96:04 vulnerable millions still die every year 96:06 of preventable diseases many more spend 96:09 their lives mired in poverty the second 96:12 answer is as I mentioned ideological and 96:15 I'll admit that capitalism is based off 96:18 wage labor which rests on the 96:20 exploitation and domination of humans by 96:23 other humans democratic workplaces 96:26 embedded in an economy committed to the 96:28 moral Worth and flourishing of all could 96:31 make the subordination no longer 96:33 necessary a third answer even if we're 96:37 content to simply reform capitalism 96:39 these reforms will be continually 96:42 undermined by capital's structural power 96:45 addressing that dilemma will mean 96:47 pressing on to democratic socialism a 96:50 good social democracy can get us pretty 96:53 far along the road to justice and we 96:56 know that social democracy works and 96:58 presumably where it falls short it could 97:01 be improved without completely doing 97:03 away with private ownership but there's 97:05 more than an ideological motivation for 97:09 a radical socialism well I consider 97:11 myself a democratic social it's not a 97:12 social democrat more than the moral idea 97:15 that the exploitation of people by 97:18 people is a problem in desperate need of 97:20 a solution 97:21 capitalism both crates the precondition 97:24 for radical human flourishing and 97:26 prevents its ultimate fulfillment for 97:29 socialists 97:30 to the extent that some hierarchies 97:32 linger they have to be constantly 97:34 justified and held in check today I 97:38 think we would all agree that extreme 97:40 forms of slavery of exploitation like 97:42 slavery should be prohibited their 97:45 socialist argues that wage labor is an 97:47 acceptable form of exploitation and that 97:49 we actually have alternatives now to 97:51 empower ordinary people to control their 97:53 destinies inside and outside their 97:55 workplace but even I have a hard time 97:58 imagining that the abstractions of 97:59 ideology will be enough to encourage a 98:01 risky leap from a humane social the 98:04 Democratic world the world that we could 98:07 build into an unknown socialist one if 98:09 that happens I imagine it'll be driven 98:12 through practical necessity through the 98:15 day-to-day struggle to preserve and 98:17 expand reforms socialists have survived 98:20 a lot over the past century it survived 98:23 persecution from tyrants and the tyrants 98:25 that it itself gave birth to it survived 98:27 the radical reshaping of capitalism and 98:29 that of its great protagonists the 98:31 working-class but does socialism have a 98:34 future 98:34 well democratic socialism actually 98:36 prevail people to more free and 98:38 prosperous system I have the utmost 98:41 confidence that a world in which some 98:43 thrive by depriving others of freedom 98:45 billions needlessly suffer amid plenty 98:48 and we move closer to ecological 98:49 catastrophe is unacceptable I also 98:52 believe that as long as we live in a 98:54 society divided by class there will be a 98:56 national natural opposition to 98:59 inequality and exploitation there will 99:01 be technical and political barriers to 99:03 progress that we can't underestimate but 99:06 if we're to make something of our shared 99:08 homeland socialist politics broadly 99:11 conceived offers us the best tools for 99:13 getting there and to thinking about 99:15 what's wrong with capitalism today 99:18 [Applause] 99:25 now have five minutes summary from the 99:27 negative well when Bhaskar ducked some 99:33 of my questions this evening there was 99:36 at least one case in which I was 99:39 heartened that he did duck the question 99:41 because when I kept asking him in his 99:44 socialist society would he shut down 99:49 crowdfunding and make it unlawful and if 99:53 something's unlawful you get punished he 99:56 couldn't answer the question he felt 99:59 back on same solid jurisprudence but he 100:01 wants a social society in which private 100:05 ownership of the means of production is 100:06 not permitted so again if it's not 100:09 permitted it's unlawful if it's on it's 100:12 not unlawful you use the power of the 100:15 state to punish people who break that 100:18 law even let's slip well yeah maybe I 100:20 would allow cloud funding that was a 100:23 good sign then when I asked Bhaskar 100:26 would you make it unlawful for somebody 100:29 to work for me I work for him just on 100:32 whatever terms they choose and if you 100:35 don't want them to do the well it may 100:37 not be necessary he said to prevent them 100:40 well yes but if it were necessary what 100:43 would you do and and then to in answer 100:49 when I asked him what why would you want 100:52 the state-owned banks to be the only 100:54 forum well well maybe they're not such 100:56 ever well you know again we know I know 101:00 at least that Bhaskar Bhaskar once he 101:04 confronts the implications of what he's 101:07 really talking about is going to back 101:10 away from what he's really proposing the 101:14 outlawing of these practices because he 101:18 doesn't approve of them well the where 101:20 he ducked to my question continually and 101:23 where he kept insisting that somehow or 101:26 other this is not doable 101:27 he ducked my question by not realizing 101:29 that we in the 1970s realized that the 101:33 record of real socialism with a real 101:37 abolition of private owners 101:38 a means of production has been so 101:41 horrific that it's unimaginable the 101:45 millions do died on China the refreshin 101:48 in China the fact that the quasi 101:50 socialist Hugo Chavez most recently kept 101:53 being cited for human rights abuses I 101:55 didn't want to stick him with the 101:57 appalling record of socialism but what I 102:00 really want him to confront is this he 102:03 cannot keep talking about how well we're 102:06 going to evolve we're going to 102:07 experiment we're gonna see we don't know 102:10 we'll develop well unfortunately after a 102:13 century of Horrors from the record of 102:16 socialism we need better answers than 102:18 that and then most importantly we're 102:21 VASCAR backed away was when I kept 102:24 telling him that you can have the 102:27 socialist revolution to tomorrow you can 102:30 start it going 102:31 you don't need forcible government edict 102:35 top-down edict to bring about even at 102:38 best that will not be as socialism worth 102:41 having you should understand private 102:44 ownership of means of production offers 102:46 you all the opportunities you want to 102:49 create consumer economies that will only 102:52 buy from your worker owned companies so 102:55 they can run things the way they want 102:57 because the consumers of i from them 102:59 wanna buy from them you can take over 103:02 companies all of that potential bhaskar 103:05 kept backing away from and I only asked 103:09 him as a lover of freedom try to 103:11 confront that try to understand what 103:14 what what socialism through capitalist 103:17 means can offer him just as we in the 103:20 new left understood as well it's a very 103:24 difficult experiment 103:26 face it please call your own bluff bring 103:31 about the socialist economy quit 103:33 pretending that consumers that the 103:36 average person has no power when when 103:39 the bottom half had one-third of the 103:41 consumer dollar and the bottom 103:42 four-fifths have nearly two-thirds quit 103:45 pretending that there's no power when 103:47 three point two trillion dollars is is 103:49 controlled by pension funds that could 103:52 voluntarily not through force of elite 103:54 --ax quit pretending that they stayed on 103:57 banks that well it's been done and you 103:59 know it works fine and and the North 104:01 Dakotans love it quit pretending that 104:04 that should be the only stop in a free 104:07 society to to those who would tell us 104:11 that we have to abide by the decisions 104:14 of the majority over the state-owned 104:15 banks we freedom lovers including VASCAR 104:20 will have to say that no we understand 104:24 that you cannot have freedom without the 104:27 option of private ownership but the good 104:29 news the good news is that it not only 104:31 lifts the living standards of the broad 104:33 masses of people it offers the freedom 104:36 to practice socialism by capitalist 104:40 means bhaskar I invite you to learn that 104:43 and put your mind around it thank you 104:47 once again the resolution socialism 104:51 socialism is more effective than 104:53 capitalism in bringing freedom to the 104:56 masses so our results here the yes vote 105:00 beforehand it was 26 percent and 105:03 afterwards it was 30 percent we had a 105:05 change of three point seven percent that 105:09 is the score to beat here the no vote 105:11 started out at 52% and then it changed 105:14 to 63% so the change was 11 percent and 105:17 that means that the the winner here is 105:21 the no vote they picked up more points 105:24 there so the Tootsie Roll goes to Eugene 105:27 so well done the prestigious took the 105:31 role prize 105:33 [Applause] ``